the same here, to expensive and also not enough time (if i would go, i want to stay at least a month…)
Says someone who just orderd a schlumpf hub build a custom v out of 2 kris holm frames:p
Bit i understand your point its to much money for only 12 days or 10?
Hope to see some nice big events in europe soon.
your handlebars are looking high up not a real race looking
But therefor i have to see it with the wheel.
and on my v-setup the body position is a little on the low side so have to adjust it some more.
sander – how has your frame been? is it working out well?
corbin
Great project, and thank you for being one of the pioneers furthering unicycle science!
In looking at your frame, I noticed the bearing will not be parallel to the ground, but instead, tilted forward, in line with the KH36 frame it was attached to originally. Is your 29er like this, too? Has it presented any problems?
Perhaps ideally, the bearing should be parallel to the ground, perpendicular with the imaginary line through the center of the “V”, if they ever become mass-produced. (Hint, hint, Kris?)
Edit: What’s the mass of that beast?
Why do you think it would matter? The bearing doesn’t really have a “top” - we just fit them randomly into the bearing holders after all, they should be completely radially symmetrical in all directions. I suppose the weight would not be held centrally by the bearing holder, but I can’t see that as a problem (when it’s done up it’s pretty much a complete circle anyway).
Or did you mean it purely aesthetically?
Rob
at the 29" it’s the same, no problem so far. it’s also in different angles, it depens how i ride (more upright or not), the same for the hight of the handlebar…
In Turtle’s case, it seems fine, because he’s got plenty of miles on his V-Guni 29.
A geared-36" wheel will likely exert more force on the frame/bearing setup. I think the frame/bearing-holder could be affected in a non-straight-down set up, though I’ve no idea whether the affect is greater than a negligible one.
There would be different properties between a purely downward force, (which wouldn’t put any pressure toward forcing the bearing holders open) and Turtle’s setup, which looks like it would be putting some force into popping them open at the “top” side.
Consider the extreme case, with bearings mounted right/left instead of up/down. Wouldn’t there be a fair amount of force wanting to open up the bearing halves? Would there be any deformation of the aluminum bearing holders? Would there be some affect on the hub bearing? Maybe even my hypothetical case would be plenty strong and never be a problem. Most likely, as in Turtle’s case, where there’s much less than in the left/right scenario, it’s not an issue.
[/uneducated hypothesis]
Anyway, Rob, should we, unicyclists of the world, be fortunate enough that such a rig as this becomes developed and marketed, I’d like to see a bearing holder parallel to the ground. Just sayin’.
Turtle - rock on, dude, and keep us updated!
Yes its working very good;)
The new riding position is way bether than the ‘‘traditional’’ position of riding a unicycle.
Alsow a big inprovement is that you can ride with a bicycle seat wich is way bether for road riding.
I’am now looking if i can make a new frame with a different angle because this one is a little on the big side, and its heavy because its made from sollid aluminium.
I’am currently working at a bicycle company so there is a chance that i can make a prototype. working on the development floor.
alsow the new sturmey archer 3 speed fixed hub will be availibe within a couple of weeks for this company we already orderd one.
I didn’t mean instead of your guys’ crazy bars, I meant as a compliment to them. That’s why I posted in this thread. I mean that you guys are doing some really cool things (things that I wish I had the money to emulate), but there seems to be just one tiny bit missing from all of your ride reports. Something that isn’t quite there yet, which is making it a bit more difficult for all of you. And I think that clipless fills that void very well.
I guarantee you, that whether or not this is what you’re missing…it is in no way a terrible idea…it’s actually improved my riding tremendously. And my shoes and pedals only cost me a little over a hundred dollars total.
The VERY infrequent times that I do fall, I ALWAYS unclip without thinking about it. However, you are right on a bit of what you said. Although, I’ve never hit my knees at all, a pair of wrist guards would help those with weaker wrists. I never fall bad, but because (I realized this after falling more this year with clipless than I had last year, and then analyzing what I was doing differently, as I posted in another thread) I am riding much harder (not the terrain, but physically pushing myself to fight against falling) I do tend to fall to my hands, instead of just being able to run it out. A good roll helps as well.
I use these shoes and these pedals .
And yes, I started with the pedals on the lightest setting, but I’ve since upped the right one a couple turns, and the left one about three turns. My right foot usually stayed put, but my left kept comming out when I was powering uphill and spinning it out downhill. And, though I’ve never been a fearful person, I have become somewhat more cautious in the last few years, and still I assure you, I NEVER worry about falling. I actually feel quite a bit more confident that I won’t get hurt clipped in.
I’m very glad that I could inspire at least one person to try something that I think is truly the missing piece of the puzzle. And let me state for the record, that I had never used clipless on anything before I tried them on my unicycle. So I have no experience using them at all. And believe me, once you realize that you’re actually MUCH more stable, you’ll be huffing up the hills and just letting your legs fly as you spin out downhills. You never need to worry about staying on, ever again. You never need to use a handle to hop or jump, or keep yourself planted when going over bumps and rough terrain. It really is quite remarkable.
Trust me, you don’t even think about it. You fall, your feet come unclipped. It’s really just as simple as that. And no, there’s no problem at all with the uni twisting instead of unclipping. If you bail every time the going gets tough, you’ll never “fall”. The only reason that I fall, is because I hang in there, like a captain on a sinking ship. And 90% of the time, I fix the leak, and the ship stays afloat. I went from falling about a dozen times on a 10 mile trail, to falling MAYBE once. I ride a 7 mile trail, that has bumps GALORE. I can’t say for sure, but I’d probably upd 20 times or more. I ride that whole trail with never falling once.
Yes, every three or four times out, I’ll fall, I have a small cut on my shoulder to prove it, but saving myself 100’s of falls for an occasional cut or bruise, I’ll take in a heartbeat. Especially considering that at least one out of those 100 or so falls that I didn’t take, would most likely cut or bruise me just as badly.
I actually think that the half clips are probably (I’ve never used them, so obviously can’t tell for sure) more dangerous than clipless.
The only one time that I didn’t get my feet out was during a dismount, when I first started. I forgot what to do, and just fell to my butt. So, yeah, if you’re prone to panic, that MIGHT be an issue. But I think only when you’re first starting, after that, it just happens.
I need to get a video of me riding, because it’s so much different than seeing videos of anyone else. Even the amazing KH’s, and Terry’s cool videos too, I think it’s detracting, for both the viewer and especially the “actor” to have to go to the handle in the rough stuff. I just swoop and glide through the forest, my arms going to and fro as I round bends, and take on dips, and bumps, and even log piles. I just never need to use a handle, and it really is nice.
But again, that’s a close handle, I still get quite numb from even short rides, I would LOVE to have a nice far handle to distribute my weight, and get more aero when the time calls. But when climbing a steep hill, or going over the really rough stuff, and the far handle doesn’t cut it, that’s where the clipless comes in.
Cool - sounds like it’s working well for you.
I did that (sideways) at least twice when I first had SPDs on my bike - I think that’s pretty normal!
Rob
Wow turtle! That’s going to be one fine 36er! Cool green too. One month is a long time to wait… But you have the 26er and the 29er to play with.
By the way I just got my new KH26 frame for the geared setup and it’s a dream!
Excellent thread…
Thanks, everyone.
As a newbie, this post may not have a lot of value to add, other than an outside perspective:
A lot of the issues that appear in here have been things I have thought of in my (very) short unicycling life. I come from a bike racing background (road and track) and, as a 47 year old, was very interested in the new lessons learnt in picking up the unicycle.
As you all know, bike racing is deeply concerned with efficient and effective power delivery. Coming from riding fixed on the track (and one of my road bikes), I surprised at how much effort went into staying upright when I was starting out on the unicycle (a 26" Torkx). In the early stages, most of the effort is in trying to stay upright (fighting forward / back / left / right), with what’s left over going into creating motion. As the brain starts to gradually adjust to its new OK / not OK balance parameters, the pedalling gets smoother, and more effort translates into positive motion.
When I first got my daughter a unicycle (I figured I’d try her first - That way, if it hurt too much, I could avoid doing it myself…), my bike riding was telling me that she should be able to obtain a better riding position, and how much better and smoother power delivery would be with clipless pedals (she’s a current State track champion, so is a good bike rider in her own right). The seat also ran against everything I have learnt from spending many hours in the (bicycle) saddle.
When I started riding a unicycle myself, naturally all of those thoughts went out the window. However, as I gradually got the hang of it, those thoughts returned. As with a child learning to walk (walking is essentially a permanent state of controlled falling), it takes time and experience to become cogniscent of the new ‘normal’, but once one does, the impossible becomes conceivable. For example, there is nothing logically wrong with using a freewheel - In a (much) younger incarnation, I could wheelstand a road bike with a freewheel as far as I liked, with the control coming through forward pedalling, and feathering the brake when required. I think Sander is on an fruitful path with his plan for a Nexus 7 (my original thoughts were for a 1970’s SA hub). It may take getting used to but, as he points out, it takes a lot to get used to a unicycle in the first place.
In bike riding positions, except for full aero positions, little weight is transferred down through the handlebars (if the rider’s position is correct). In our coaching sessions for our Junior riders, core strength exercises include riding up hills in a low position with the hands hovering just above the tops.
If lightness is an issue (and unicycles are not generally built light), the forward section of a V-Frame could afford to be relatively light, and yet still achieve sufficient strength.
I have a long way to go before my riding skills are up to where I feel constrained by my equipment, but here is the approach I thought of for myself:
In setting up a V-Frame, utilise a bike fork and pivot it off the front of the rear fork (easy enough to braze on a pair of pivots). Then, where Turtle has run his curved fore-aft brace, use an adjustable pinned link (ie one that is robust under tension and compression). The correct reach would be achieved by extending or retracting the link (setting the angle of the V).
On the clipless pedals front, whilst the idea is scary (as it is for anyone first starting out clipped or clipless on a bike) but, following the learning curve, I can see how it would provide a level of control that may well make those UPD’s less frequent. Indeed, many of the injuries appear to come from trying to run out a fall which shouldn’t be run out - perhaps it’s better not having that option?
Has anyone tried riding a 25mm 700c wheel long enough to get over what I would expect would be a different set of dynamics to standard unicycle rims and tyres? How much do unicycles rely on the inertia of the tyre & rim for stability at speed?
Again, my apologies for jumping into the thread of a very experienced group of riders, when I am still in that state of wild-eyed terror (mixed with pleasure), but I am sure that, particularly for distance riding, the lessons of bicycles have some relevance.
I’m enjoying my riding immensely, and am using my unicycle over in Singapore (good roads) during a project I’m working on there.
Cheers,
Eoin
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Hi Eoin, welcome to the forums and thank you for your well thought out post. Unicycling, especially the big-wheel, high-speed branch of it, is still a relatively young sport compared to bicycling. I think that over the last few years, we have started to discover that there is a lot in bicycling (developed over more than 100 years of being a mass sport) that could transfer to unicycling. Things like gears, forward position, seats, clipless - and I’m sure there is more to come. As a unicycling community, we are trying to adopt such notions to our benefit, and adapt our riding approach to suit them.
The way you write you sound like an experienced bike rider, and one who thinks sensibly about what could be advantageous. I’m sure that you could contribute to the development of unicycling. Although you mention some salient technical points, for now I leave it to others to respond to specific issues. I would just in general encourage you to keep at riding unicycles, and continue your way of thinking. Kudos!
Hi, Klaas.
Thank you for your welcome. I’m sorry to digress from the thread, but…
I have raced bikes, on and off, since the 1970’s, and come from Ken’s home town.
It was seeing the Adventure Unicyclist website that got my interest intitially stirred. I was working in West Africa, and the idea of ridng a uni around was very attractive. One night, sitting out on an unlit street in Bata, EG, a local guy came down the dirt road on a decidedly well-worn 24" uni. I ran and caught up with him. The uni had been left behind by a German man passing through some years before. The weird bit is that this guy, having picked up the leftover uni without having ridden a bike before, and taught himself to ride the thing, didn’t see anything unusual in it (I don’t just mean that he’d come to treat it as normal - rather that he though it’s what everyone in the outside World rode).
That was the ‘sign from the stars’, and I bought my daughter a uni (so that I could see if the pain was worth it), back in Australia. It was worth it, and I taught myself to ride when I was back home and the family away on a holiday. I have enjoyed the experience immensely.
Getting back slightly on topic - My observations are that, prior to having any experience, I had ideas from watching my daughter as to how the uni could be made more efficient. When I started riding, the whacky dynamics threw those ideas out the window. Now, as I am more steady, I am pleased to see the ideas start to return to making sense.
When we start riding, falling off is the norm, and everything we do is based on the next action probably resulting in a fall. I taught my niece and nephew to ride uni’s last time home, and it’s very interesting to watch how fragile that psychological progress-oriented process can be when faced with almost guaranteed ‘failure’ at each attempt. As we know, falls are not failures - they are part of the learning experience.
Reading through this thread shows that many of you are still willing to learn, which is great to see. Again, as Sander stated, unicycling seems impossible until you try it, so the same may apply to any modification to the standard uni.
Having spent numerous hours (when I was supposed to be doing more productive things) watching video clips of great unicyclists in action, UPD’s become the exception, rather than the rule, even in (at least what I would regard as) intensive, action-packed riding situations. As the (no reference) legend goes, when Volvo were carrying out their massive safety studies of the 1950’s / 60’s (?), safer vehicles and roads tended to make drivers less safe. The theory being that the best way to make the roads safe would be to have a large spike sticking out of the steering column towards the driver - then they would drive carefully.
Back on the V-Frame idea (so I can claim a tiny bit of thread relevance), when I was talking of a pivoted front frame with a lockable telescopic link (in place of Turtle’s curved brace), I was thinking of a tescopic tube such as these:
I have very much enjoyed reading of all of your projects, and the different approaches at ‘reinventing the wheel’. Please keep it going.
Cheers,
Eoin
Hi, Klaas.
Thank you for the welcome. It is human nature to allow perceptions to stifle how quickly we grow. It is great to see the variety of solution attempts on here, and the progress that has been made. Looking at Turtle’s video clips makes the V-Bike look decidedly normal - A sure sign of concept value…
As unicyclists, you are all already creating a new norm that seems outlandish to the non-unicycling World.
By way of example on varying norms:
When I was just getting interested in unicycles (Thanks, Ken and Adventure Unicyclist), I was working in Bata in Equatorial Guinea. Bicycles are few and far between over there. One night I was sitting outside a roadside bar, when a local guy came down the dirt road on a decidedly non-concours uni. I took off after him and caught him up down the road. The unicycle was left over from a German who had passed through some years before. This guy had come across the uni and taught himself to ride, never having ridden a bicycle before. He thought it was normal, in that he thought that’s what everyone rode in the outside World. He didn’t take up unicycling as an oddity or test, just as a means for getting around.
This has helped me develop a theory that the only people who find unicycling to be amazing are people who have ridden bikes. Very young kids who haven’t started riding yet, and some older people in places where bicycles are uncommon, don’t see it as any odder than bike riding (I don’t know how much validity the theory has, but it keeps me observing).
Anyway, the basic underlying point is that our thoughts of what is normal tend to constrict our development. Having broken those constrictions somewhat by unicycling, it is important not to let new ‘norms’ constrain further growth, which is why it’s great to see so many of you putting R&D into practice.
To show a token thread relevance, when I spoke (?) of a V-Frame using a telescopic link between the two frame sections (in the place where Turtle has his curved brace), my thoughts were of a locking telescopic tube, such as these:
http://testrite.com/oem_product_design_guide.html
These things, in aluminium or fibreglass, are strong.
Cheers,
Eoin
I’m not determined enough to search for the evidence (it may be in this thread or others), but Turtle and other folks have experimented with adjustable designs. Be it that that was mainly to assess the best V-angle and other measurements to suit their own riding style and body dimensions before “casting them in metal”. To me it seems more sturdy to have your frame in rigid metal, outweighing the benefit of permanent adjustability. Don’t underestimate the forces when a unicycle crashes - and we all crash sometimes.
It may be telling that bicycles with adjustable frames are not widely used (there might be some but I’ve never even seen one). On the other hand, I have a Kris Holm T-bar on two of my unicycles. These basically serve the same purpose of extended-reach handlebars. While it is a less strong design than a V-frame, I love the adjustability of that thing. The other advantage is that T-bars are commercially available, but then again I wouldn’t be surprised if V-frames can also be bought off the shelf before too long.
wow! very cool thoughts, but for me also hard to understand (need more practice in englisch 
)
i think for roadriding the v-frame is a very good solution. i rode only about 20km with the 36" V-frame, but i like it alot. still it’s scary to ride with the arms on the aerobar… (the face ist close to the road) …going clipless is out of question for me (i’m a muni rider mainly…).
i think also like klaas, a rigid frame is much better, then something adjustable. you can still change the height of the handlebar and sattle, you can also use different long bars which goes to the handlebar (don’t know how it calls…)
Great photo.
This is the position I would ultimately like to be in. It seems dangerous at first glance, yes, but all I know is that when I’m riding long distance day after day on tour, my body wants to be in a more bike-like position. My butt naturally wants to sit behind the seat where there is no seat.
A rigid V frame like this seems to be the obvious solution.
Have you UPD’d on this thing yet?
I agree about the importance of the rigid frame. You really don’t want that to have movable parts. Too much slop and twisting is possible which could interfere with the responsiveness of the handlebars and thus steering and balance. That being said, I think that having a weak link in the set up has it’s benefits. I’ve got a V frame with aero bars mounted to the forward arm of the V frame. There’s a seat post clamp holding the handlebar stem in place, and the aero bars themselves are bolted to the handlebar stem. This provides two non-welded points that can give during a UPD if the forces are great enough. Usually nothing moves, but on some occasions the forces are enough to twist one of these linkages around a bit. Think of it like the crumple zone in a car. It’s better to have the bumper and engine compartment get crushed than the interior of the car. Likewise it’s better to have the handlebars get twisted to the side a little than to put all of that force on the welded joints of the frame. The frame is more likely to emerge intact.
So who knows what the right answer is? Completely rigid, semi-rigid, floppy? It’s all about balancing the benefits and drawbacks of rigidity, adjustability and ability to withstand UPDs without cracking.
Geoff
I agree with you, you need some point that can give during a upd.
On my v-frame i have the same points in the design as you have (turtle also)
but most of the time it stay in place ( no big upd’s yet 
)
we almost need a thread custom v-frame unicycles;)