Road Unicycle Set-Up and T7 Handle Modification

[EoinC]

@Klaas Bil

…To me it seems more sturdy to have your frame in rigid metal, outweighing the benefit of permanent adjustability. Don’t underestimate the forces when a unicycle crashes - and we all crash sometimes…

Hi, Klass.
I understand your points. Adjustability does not necessarily mean a lack of rigidity (although it usually means a price to pay in weight / bulk). I’m also not sure how much actual force can be put into a handlebar on a uni, as the force will naturally require something to react against without totally throwing the COG.
Pinned / bushed joints would allow the front unit to be dismantled just by pulling safety pins. Seat and handlebar stem adjustment, combined with link adjustment, would allow changing reach easily. The link may also be capable of absorbing some of the energy of a crash. without permanent damage.
As you point out, though, once the ideal is obtained (which may take some time, as it takes a while (for me, anyway) to adjust the brain to a new position.
Turtle’s latest photo is wonderful. He looks to be in a lower position than the earlier photo’s.

Cheers,
Eoin

[EoinC]

@turtle

…i think for roadriding the v-frame is a very good solution…

That looks excellent, Turtle. It looks like it just came off the production line, and is what all upwardly-mobile unicyclists are riding this season…
Well done on going beyond words and getting a practical solution out on the road.

Cheers,
Eoin

[Klaas_Bil]

@EoinC

Adjustability does not necessarily mean a lack of rigidity

I see your point. The joint in the middle of your near-horizontal tube would be as rigid as the seat post clamp that we all take for granted. The four hinge points (the bottom one in the picture is really one on each side) would need to be rigid too, though. It’s easy enough to have them without play in the drawing plane, but you would also want to minimise lateral flex of your frame when you push hard on the pedals.

But hey, try it out by all means!

[EoinC]

@Klaas Bil

…But hey, try it out by all means!

It’ll be a while before I get to do anything about it in the material World. I head back to Australia later this month, and have about 4,000 tasks set in front of me before I return to Singapore. It’s on the list, though…

Cheers,
Eoin

[uniShark]

@EoinC

Having spent numerous hours (when I was supposed to be doing more productive things) watching video clips of great unicyclists in action, UPD’s become the exception, rather than the rule, even in (at least what I would regard as) intensive, action-packed riding situations.

Hi Eoin, welcome to the sport and the threads! I’m also pretty much a newb, self-taught about a year ago now.

I thought the quote above was a bit funny – don’t let people’s videos make you feel bad about UPD’s, because I suspect the falls are usually the first thing edited out. Actually, my favorite videos are the ones where they include a string of UPD’s at the end, like unigeezer does sometimes.

[EoinC]

@uniShark

…don’t let people’s videos make you feel bad about UPD’s…

Hi, UniShark.
Don’t worry - I see UPD’s (at least at this stage) as an indicator that I’m learning. That being said, their absence is nice, too! A couple of days ago I managed to summit a hill that I’ve been attempting for the last month or so, and the UPD-less experience was wonderful.
I can see, with the hilly riding around here, that a handle may help me steady a little. When I hold the front of the seat, my riding tends to settle down a bit, but it feels like my hand should be further forward, and that I should be able to keep both hands out there. I guess I’m feeling the progression.

Cheers,
Eoin

[ebevensee]

T-Rex_Unicycle

Hi All;

My exploration setup:

Improvised a mast out of a bike rack. Used as a front extension to mount aerobars, and as a seat post clamp. This allow me to lower my seat to a minimum ( I’m 5’ 5" short). Aerobars for riding and handle bars for mounting. I added recently an adjustable stem extension to try different lengths and heights on my aerobars.

After several experiments and considerations, and reviewing few threads about frames and positions, I’ve come to the conclusion that this is a lot more about the position than all the hardware variables together.

True, as KH stated on his post, no matter what the configuration is, your CG will reach some point near by the wheel axe anyway for balance. I little frontward when speeding up, a little backward when slowing down. That’s pure physics applied on the unicycling riding nature.

Lower positions gave me backaches and made little “wheel to aerobar misalignment” or side gusty wind hard to compensate while riding.

A more “T-Rex” position, yes as the dinosaur, gave me better comfort on long rides. Therefore I’m baptizing my contraption as the"T-Rex_Unicycle", following the logic of those baptizing “jirafe Unicycle” the one allowing you ride high to the tree top.

If you look my picture videos, my position is not too different than the one on the pictures for the green V frame, but my forearms again, are a lot closer to the T-Rex arm position. More aerodynamic, and definitely out of the way in case UPD.

I’ve also keep mounting handles to help me to get started.

I will be looking for seats optional to my current road bike seat. The one I have its OK, but is the first one I’ve tried and I’m willing to try a few more.

I will post a video next…

[lpounds]

Bringing this awesome thread back from the dead.

It’s been a long time since I posted on these forums, and I find that I miss reading and posting here everyday like I used to. It’s always fun to hang around a forum long enough to start feeling a sense of community, even if I’m not the most well known myself.

I no longer own any unicycles and have instead invested in the complete Surly Long Haul Trucker touring set-up (Please don’t ostracize me :p)

Of course, it’s more comfortable, capable of carrying far more, more stable, safer, and easier to find replacement parts for. Somehow, though, I still miss the sensation and sense of accomplishment one achieves when they ride a touring unicycle all day.

The topic of long distance un-supported touring was always what interested me most in the unicycling realm. After doing a considerable amount of it, I realized I needed a V frame that would put me in a position similar to turtle’s 2 KH frame build.

Does anyone believe that a V frame, IGH-compatible complete touring unicycle will ever be available commercially? Has there been any progress or rumours that I am not aware of?

I realize there is little to no market for a production V frame 36er, but I am still hopeful. At the very least hoping to start this discussion back up.

Levi

[turtle]

Does anyone believe that a V frame, IGH-compatible complete touring unicycle will ever be available commercially? Has there been any progress or rumours that I am not aware of?

i had email contact with kh, and i’m pretty sure it will never happen… the market is just to small…

[saskatchewanian]

Probably not KH or Nimbus (or Coker, or Qu-Ax, or any other biggish name) but maybe a small builder (eg: hunter?) might make a few.

How are you doing Levi? I am glad to report that your old 36" rim is finally finding use downsized to a 32"

[lpounds]

I’m doing pretty well thanks. I saw that 32 inch wheel. Really cool stuff.

[siafirede]

@lpounds

Bringing this awesome thread back from the dead.

It’s been a long time since I posted on these forums, and I find that I miss reading and posting here everyday like I used to. It’s always fun to hang around a forum long enough to start feeling a sense of community, even if I’m not the most well known myself.

I no longer own any unicycles and have instead invested in the complete Surly Long Haul Trucker touring set-up (Please don’t ostracize me :p)

Of course, it’s more comfortable, capable of carrying far more, more stable, safer, and easier to find replacement parts for. Somehow, though, I still miss the sensation and sense of accomplishment one achieves when they ride a touring unicycle all day.

The topic of long distance un-supported touring was always what interested me most in the unicycling realm. After doing a considerable amount of it, I realized I needed a V frame that would put me in a position similar to turtle’s 2 KH frame build.

Does anyone believe that a V frame, IGH-compatible complete touring unicycle will ever be available commercially? Has there been any progress or rumours that I am not aware of?

I realize there is little to no market for a production V frame 36er, but I am still hopeful. At the very least hoping to start this discussion back up.

Levi

Nice, what handlebars did you end up going with for your surly LHT? I switched to drop bars again recently on my LHT because I needed something a lot more narrow for riding in melbourne than my nitto albatross bars, but I hate the drops and miss my old bars.

I find myself biking more than unicycling nowadays, but I like having a 36er and a muni to play with (especially when they both have geared hubs).

As far as a V-frame goes, contact a frame builder, I doubt there will be a commercially available v frame anytime soon.

[ebevensee]

Could my design work for you as an option to the V-frame?

Check all material I shared on a different thread…

http://www.unicyclist.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1400668#post1400668

Erich

[unicycleharry]

I don’t think it is likely unicyclists can put little weight on their handlebars and still be bent over comfortably.

Stationary balancing on unicycle:

Without handlebars/front grip, my contact point with the saddle AND my center of mass is always above the wheel/hub.
I can sit straight up, weight going through a vertical frame and I am balanced. As I bend forward and the frame tilts back, I can feel the weight move towards the front of my crotch closer to the front of the saddle, which is just above the wheel’s contact point to the ground.

If I add handlebars, I can put weight on my handlebars, and the contact point on the saddle moves back. The more weight I put on the bars, I can tilt and move back more.
Center of mass remains above the wheel/hub.
The torques from the contact points (saddle and handlebars) must balance out.

So, I was thoroughly perplexed by how bikers can be bent over and not have much weight/pressure on their handlebars. Their upper body has weight…pivoting around their saddle…so even if their body has enough core strength to be rigid, they would need to put weight on their hands/handlebar so then don’t rotate around their saddle…
I realized, that it CAN be done. That is, bent over and no/little weight on their hands.
They have to be pedaling hard.
Looking at a bicyclist from their left, going forward, their weight makes them rotate counterclockwise around their saddle, and the handlebars can push them clockwise. BUT, if they are pedaling hard enough, that force makes them rotate clockwise as well. So given they pedal hard enough, and have enough core strength, they don’t need to put pressure on their handlebars.

I don’t think I can pedal that hard for a long time on flat ground.

My conclusion is: I will continue to rely on my handlebars to support myself…as well as for a unicycle(if I want to bend/tuck over without have weight on the front of my crotch). The handlebar won’t be to take weight off my saddle, but to allow me to sit back in my saddle where my frame is at a similar angle to that of a bicycle seat tube. This should also help me have my thighs bend forward more, exposing my sit bones to support the weight on the saddle.

I am not sure if my logic is correct…as my idea about this has been changing as I read more information and thought about it more.

[Twente_Muni]

Makes perfect sense to me.

You just can’t put very much pressure on the pedals, because the gearing of a uni is to low.
Well perhaps with a geared 36er it is possible.

[jtrops]

@unicycleharry

I don’t think it is likely unicyclists can put little weight on their handlebars and still be bent over comfortably.

Stationary balancing on unicycle:

Without handlebars/front grip, my contact point with the saddle AND my center of mass is always above the wheel/hub.
I can sit straight up, weight going through a vertical frame and I am balanced. As I bend forward and the frame tilts back, I can feel the weight move towards the front of my crotch closer to the front of the saddle, which is just above the wheel’s contact point to the ground.

If I add handlebars, I can put weight on my handlebars, and the contact point on the saddle moves back. The more weight I put on the bars, I can tilt and move back more.
Center of mass remains above the wheel/hub.
The torques from the contact points (saddle and handlebars) must balance out.

So, I was thoroughly perplexed by how bikers can be bent over and not have much weight/pressure on their handlebars. Their upper body has weight…pivoting around their saddle…so even if their body has enough core strength to be rigid, they would need to put weight on their hands/handlebar so then don’t rotate around their saddle…
I realized, that it CAN be done. That is, bent over and no/little weight on their hands.
They have to be pedaling hard.
Looking at a bicyclist from their left, going forward, their weight makes them rotate counterclockwise around their saddle, and the handlebars can push them clockwise. BUT, if they are pedaling hard enough, that force makes them rotate clockwise as well. So given they pedal hard enough, and have enough core strength, they don’t need to put pressure on their handlebars.

I don’t think I can pedal that hard for a long time on flat ground.

My conclusion is: I will continue to rely on my handlebars to support myself…as well as for a unicycle(if I want to bend/tuck over without have weight on the front of my crotch). The handlebar won’t be to take weight off my saddle, but to allow me to sit back in my saddle where my frame is at a similar angle to that of a bicycle seat tube. This should also help me have my thighs bend forward more, exposing my sit bones to support the weight on the saddle.

I am not sure if my logic is correct…as my idea about this has been changing as I read more information and thought about it more.

On a bike if you were to put a longer stem on without moving the saddle back by equal measure you would end up with much greater weight on the hands. by moving the handlebars back in the same context you would relieve weight from the hands. Why? because the center of gravity (COG) is moved forward of the center of balance (COB) in the first example, and it is moved closer to the balance center in the second. So, first we need to assume that the rider is fitted for the bike correctly and that they are basically in a balanced riding position. Now, any adjustment that is done needs to maintain the balanced position or it can lead to too much weight on the hands.

Another way to put it is that if you lean forward from the hips while standing you can only go so far before you either have to put a foot out to catch your fall, or move your butt back to balance the forward lean. As long as you are balanced you can maintain the position without a huge effort even with average core strength. It’s when you are out of balance that it becomes a super human feat.

Consider how easy it is to ride a bike with no hands. In this situation you are riding with your COG directly over the COB, and zero weight on the hands!

[tholub]

@unicycleharry

I don’t think it is likely unicyclists can put little weight on their handlebars and still be bent over comfortably.

Stationary balancing on unicycle:

Without handlebars/front grip, my contact point with the saddle AND my center of mass is always above the wheel/hub.
I can sit straight up, weight going through a vertical frame and I am balanced. As I bend forward and the frame tilts back, I can feel the weight move towards the front of my crotch closer to the front of the saddle, which is just above the wheel’s contact point to the ground.

If I add handlebars, I can put weight on my handlebars, and the contact point on the saddle moves back. The more weight I put on the bars, I can tilt and move back more.
Center of mass remains above the wheel/hub.
The torques from the contact points (saddle and handlebars) must balance out.

So, I was thoroughly perplexed by how bikers can be bent over and not have much weight/pressure on their handlebars. Their upper body has weight…pivoting around their saddle…so even if their body has enough core strength to be rigid, they would need to put weight on their hands/handlebar so then don’t rotate around their saddle…
I realized, that it CAN be done. That is, bent over and no/little weight on their hands.
They have to be pedaling hard.
Looking at a bicyclist from their left, going forward, their weight makes them rotate counterclockwise around their saddle, and the handlebars can push them clockwise. BUT, if they are pedaling hard enough, that force makes them rotate clockwise as well. So given they pedal hard enough, and have enough core strength, they don’t need to put pressure on their handlebars.

Think about the biomechanics of it. A bicyclist who is leaning over has his butt connected to the seat, and his spine acting as an arch, holding up his body. Touching the handlebars is really not necessary, even if you’re not pedaling. It’s possible to stay leaned over, take your hands off the handlebars, and coast with your arms crossed behind you, without significant bodily effort. That posture is, after all, how our simian ancestors get around.

Good bike posture for distance riding has your upper arms almost vertical to the ground, with your forearms at almost a 90 degree angle to them holding onto the bars, and your arms and upper body relaxed. You can’t take much weight on your arms in that posture.

On a standard unicycle, your spine isn’t doing a lot to help you out, and your arm is probably taking more weight than it does on a bike, because you’re pushing your body weight up off the seat with that arm (for road riding).

On a uni with an extended handlebar, the posture is a little more like bike posture, but I’ve never seen someone riding in a posture that looks like a bike racer–even really fast guys like Scott Wilton are in what would look like an upright, around-town posture on a bike. (Image from Uni Nationals 2013 marathon race).

[unicycleharry]

@jtrops

On a bike if you were to put a longer stem on without moving the saddle back by equal measure you would end up with much greater weight on the hands. by moving the handlebars back in the same context you would relieve weight from the hands. Why? because the center of gravity (COG) is moved forward of the center of balance (COB) in the first example, and it is moved closer to the balance center in the second. So, first we need to assume that the rider is fitted for the bike correctly and that they are basically in a balanced riding position. Now, any adjustment that is done needs to maintain the balanced position or it can lead to too much weight on the hands.

Another way to put it is that if you lean forward from the hips while standing you can only go so far before you either have to put a foot out to catch your fall, or move your butt back to balance the forward lean. As long as you are balanced you can maintain the position without a huge effort even with average core strength. It’s when you are out of balance that it becomes a super human feat.

Consider how easy it is to ride a bike with no hands. In this situation you are riding with your COG directly over the COB, and zero weight on the hands!

I believe what you say here is true. For the handlebar positioning(forward and back), CG would move if you keep your arms flexed the same and CG shifts. If you keep your body in the same position, but move your hand position closer to your body, you would need more force to support your body(similar to using only a grab handle on unicycle).

@tholub

Think about the biomechanics of it. A bicyclist who is leaning over has his butt connected to the seat, and his spine acting as an arch, holding up his body. Touching the handlebars is really not necessary, even if you’re not pedaling. It’s possible to stay leaned over, take your hands off the handlebars, and coast with your arms crossed behind you, without significant bodily effort. That posture is, after all, how our simian ancestors get around.

Good bike posture for distance riding has your upper arms almost vertical to the ground, with your forearms at almost a 90 degree angle to them holding onto the bars, and your arms and upper body relaxed. You can’t take much weight on your arms in that posture.

On a standard unicycle, your spine isn’t doing a lot to help you out, and your arm is probably taking more weight than it does on a bike, because you’re pushing your body weight up off the seat with that arm (for road riding).

On a uni with an extended handlebar, the posture is a little more like bike posture, but I’ve never seen someone riding in a posture that looks like a bike racer–even really fast guys like Scott Wilton are in what would look like an upright, around-town posture on a bike. (Image from Uni Nationals 2013 marathon race).

When I sit on my bike, and let my legs dangle: I have to hold onto the handlebars if I bend over, otherwise my legs go backwards to balance my upper body going forward. I can only not use my hands if I sit straight up.

Going downhill on a bike without pedaling, I can be bent over but not use my hands because my legs are pushing against both pedals even though they aren’t moving. If I start pedaling, lightly, the resistive force is gone and I need to use my hands to keep my upper body from falling down.

If I have a soft noddle, and i want it to be supported at an angle(left scribble in my picture) it would fall. If it was a hard noodle, it would still fall/rotate around the saddle. Since the CG of the noddle is on the left side of the pivot point, it needs to be supported somehow.

Given that unicycles have a much higher cadence to go fast and less pushing on the pedals, compared to bikes(maybe different for geared unicycles?) , we need to have handlebars to support bent over upper body mass if our saddle support point is behind the hub/wheel contact point. This is in conflict with good biking posture.