It WAS tough.
Oh, you’re BillyTheMountain…I was adding a “Goat” to the end. Sorry!
Hey Mike:
I’m sure I deserved it. And you’ve won me over! [I confess, I like that song you called…]
But what was TOUGH?
Billy
Billythe mountain- as you seem to be an educated man i’m sure you will understand that i can’t just skim through the qur’an- after all it is a sin to have it translated into any language other than the traditional arabic in which it was written by muhammed. I got that knowledge from my study into the famous Islamic scholor Abu Hamid Al-Ghazali (1058), who practically defined the practice of Islam to this date. You might to be able to find english translations of the books that he wrote- like “the incoherance of the philosophers” or some of his later ones that dealt directly with the nature and essence of God.
I know there is an English translation of the Qu’ran out there and i intend to read it soon. I suppose it seems like a smart idea to read the book that above all others has influenced the lives of people in this earth.
I still stand by my viewpoint that it is better to have no faith and make the most of the time we are guaranteed to have, rather than have a false belief that we use to combat our fear of our own mortality.
But then again i suppose it is just a matter of personal prefference,
Mark
I usually try to keep out of religious (or political for that matter) discussions because they usually only serve to wind people up. I don’t see much point in arguing over a subject that can never be proven either way, so nobody is right or wrong.
But I’m going to give my opinion for what it’s worth…
In reply to the original question, I would answer “no”, because I do not believe in God as defined by modern organised religion. But, on the other hand, originally “God” was a way to explain anything we don’t understand (Why does the sun rise in the morning? God does it. Why do volcanoes erupt and ruin our village? God does it. Why do people die? God does it. etc, etc). So it was obviously good to stay on the right side of this God. In this way of thinking, God is nature, the natural forces, which can be pretty awesome and not under our direct control. I can relate to this, and it leads to some sensible ways of living (don’t take too many fish from the sea or God will be angry and not provide so many for next season, for example). I think perhaps we could do with more of this sort of attitude today. I certainly think you need to respect natural forces or they will get you in the end. Perhaps that makes me a Pagan or hippy, but I don’t think of myself as religious.
Now the potentially controvertial bit… as far as I can see, organised religions developed out of these basic beliefs. People started giving the natural forces names and characters to make them easier to relate to. No problem there. But then certain people realised they could exploit people beliefs for their own benefit and profit, basically scaremongering and preying on people’s fear of the unknown in order to gain control over them. That’s where most modern religions are coming from in my opinion.
That is just my opinion, because you asked. What I wrote is not intended to offend anybody - like I said at the start, there is no way to tell who is right or wrong in these matters, so I respect other people’s beliefs. What does annoy me is when people try to push their beliefs on others.
Rob
Quite clearly, somebody is right and somebody is wrong. (God exists. No He doesn’t. – they can’t both be true)
Also, I’m trying to discuss this without upsetting anybody. I think it’s possible to disagree on such a hot topic without creating animosity (and right now, I think we are all doing a pretty good job at it).
But mostly, I just like talking to BillyTheMountainGoat.
You see, you’re just a bunch of realists.
Be a Social Constructionist psychologist like me then everybody can be right because there is no ultimate truth (except ofcourse for the tiger variety, Mikefule).
Cathy
Brother Dave: I can take a goat joke. Maybe I even need a name makeover… I like talking to you too!
Hey Rob,
I’m with you 100%. Here’s some quotes suggesting that organized religion has done a job quite different from what the prophets wanted:
There are as many paths to the truth as there are hearts of humanity.
–sayings of the Prophet Muhammed, PBUH
There is no compulsion in religion. --Holy Qur’an
Mark: How educated do I need to be to work at Wal-Mart? I’m in the aisles, with no plans to become manager of my department. I read on my breaks, and if I stock the shelves fast, I can hide out and read some more. I’ll bet I could find some cool quotes from Abu Hamid Al-Ghazali – thanks for the lead.
You say it is better to have no faith and make the most of the time we are guaranteed to have, rather than have a false belief that we use to combat our fear of our own mortality. My question to you is: In what way is it better? Or to what end? I know that’s just another question like Does GOD exist? or Does LOVE exists? Neither can be proven, for the cynics.
Have you tried both faith and no faith? Was one better even for a while? Better for meeting girls? Getting lucky? Or for wheel-walking?
Billy
To answer the original question: sort of. If enough people believe something, it starts to be true just through the power of so many people mentally banking on it. Almosts every culture on Earth developed with a god or gods. Though that concept is fairly universal, the various gods are not.
Jesus: I believe Jesus lived. He influenced lots of people, then he died. Then there were stories and legends.
I believe God(s) was/were/are created by man. We have the power to create as well. I believe the world/universe was not created. So where did it come from? We don’t know. The purpose of God (one of the purposes) is to fill in for the things we don’t know. But in the last 2000 years or so, we have filled in a lot of those blanks, and in many cases the answers we discovered, on our own, did not agree with those of various religions. We continue to learn more, and eventually I think we will figure out most of the answers.
How can one stand not knowing where the universe came from? Easy. Since I think most of the guesses made by man in ancient times are probably way wrong, my assumption is that no one ever did anyway. Now we may have “better” ideas of how the universe and planets were formed. Much of this is speculation as well. We’re just starting to scratch the surface there. But we’ll keep figuring out more.
Remember when people couldn’t fly, and heaven was supposedly just a few thousand feet up or so? Then it had to move back as we started flying airplanes. Then it had to move back some more when we started leaving the atmosphere…
The whole “war” thing is good. Usually both sides think God is on their side, then they go out and slaughter each other. Now unless there’s a need for armies to slaughter each other every once in a while, I don’t think God has anything to do with it.
Which religious wars are just, and who decides? Are wars acts of Satan? If so, why are they always perpetrated by people?
I find it much easier to believe in the God of the “Oh God” movies (John Denver, the 1970s). The general idea there is that God created the world(universe), set it in motion, maybe tampered with it a little while people were around, but then stepped back and kept out of things. Perhaps he is watching us to see how we’re doing.
In that world, there are good people of every faith, as well as bad ones. There are non-religious people who deserve a pleasant afterlife, and religious zealots who deserve eternal suffering. Not that it’s up to me. So what does the George Burns God make of all this?
Afterlife:
It’s comforting to think that when you die, you won’t really die. That there will be something more. I don’t buy it. The reason to be a good person in this life is because you will hopefully feel better by it, and others will as well. Be a nice person.
…so the world was flat for awhile? And when did the Sun stop revolving around the earth? How many people have to change their mind before this “power of so many people” kicks in?
My sentiments exactly. [and you might just be suggesting John Lennon’s Hindu belief: Instant Karma 's gonna get you].
Thanks for weighing in, John.
Billy
We should abolish anything, like religion, that has the potential to cause wars and violence! Oh wait, isn’t science responsible for WMDs? 
Note that when groups of people believe something, it is true relative to the group. This is not to be confused with the absolute Truth, assuming that it exists.
…except the ultimate truth that the social constructionist psychologist view is the correct outlook. 
Oh no.
I thought my responses would be separate from John’s. I wasn’t trying to put words in John’s quote. Any suggestions for making my responses clear?
Billy
Those of us who believe in one GOD see all of these as manifestations of the one GOD. Ask Hindu Dave aka Gild aka namaste, if you don’t believe me.
That’s NOT the purpose of the one GOD, and in fact it’s irrelevant to the one GOD.
Me neither.
That’s a far cry from the GOD of the Qur’an. Supreme reality aka GOD is greater than any conception you might have of supreme reality. This is repeated over and over in the call to prayer, 5 times a day. If you must constrict the conception, think tenderly and infinitely compassionate, infinitely merciful.
My sentiments exactly. [and you might just be suggesting John Lennon’s Hindu belief: Instant Karma 's gonna get you].
Thanks for weighing in, John.
Billy
Yes. The world was flat in the science books of the time (if any). It was “official” at the time. Even when it was shown that the world wasn’t flat, it took years for the world to catch on, I’m sure.
And what of the Flat Earth Society? I think most of them are just goofing around, but they represent the concept of refusing to believe something that has a ton of evidence to show it’s true, from many angles, with many ways to prove it.
So though those things were never “true,” they carried massive amounts of weight. The “power,” as you mention, can take the form of affecting public policy, cause people to get killed in disagreements, cause science books to be written wrong, mis-spend research money on things like expeditions to the edges of the earth (they never get there), etc.
For the Californians out there:
How about the “truths” in all the TV ads depicting teachers, nurses, firefighters? Up to $80 million is being spent in CA to prevent laws from being changed to take away some of the powers of the big public labor unions. TV commercials were never so annoying!
Billythemountain- Your work does not define who you are. Remember, Einstein came up with his general theory of relativity (or something like that) while he was working 9-5 in a patent office. Hell, some people might go so far as to call you postmodern! (I would cause it is more likely to get the chicks)
I have no problem with people believing in God- as long as they actually DO believe in him. If their belief in religion makes them a better more fulfilled person than good for them. When they die they will not be dissapointed if there is no god- (no consciousness to be dissapointed). A half believer dying would experience the same oblivion- the negative value of this half believing is in their life which i know from experience is full of uncertainty, wasted chances and the “what if” principle. I am vehemently aginst people who pseudo believe in a god because they are afraid of death and the possibility of oblivion (loss of consciousness).
Perhaps the most positive aspect of my beliefs is i am now being proactive in achieving what i want- i am in complete control of my own life. I don’t get angry at the natural cycles of birth/death that plague us all.
Billythemountain- if you want to find out more stuff on Al-ghazali look up Sufi mysticism. Lots of interesting ideas there.
All you religious people in the thread that have stated that you do not want to discuss your faith (and justification for your belief in it) please take a good look at what your religion is doing for you, don’t unquestionably believe in tradition etc. I know that when i stopped believing in a God i became a happier person- it may work for you too.
Mark
Belief?
Believe in God? nope.
The problem is that unless God ( or a God ) suddenly leaps up and says “Here I am!” , there is no way you can disprove or prove his existence. For a tree to exist and grow in no way proves the existence of any deity.
You may ask “What is the purpose of life?” I might ask What is God’s purpose if he does exist?" Whatever that purpose might be he is making as big a mess of it as we ourselves are.
Interesting arguments exist both ways: the God botherer will contradict the fossil evidence of evolution in many ways, the most extreme maybe being that “God planted the fossils in the ground for reason x”. Difficult to find any argument that would convince that believer he could be wrong.
From the evolutionists side the question: “If God created all this, who created God?” becomes equally unanswerable, as does the question that would immediately follow any answer. If he “always existed” then why, and why did it take so long for him to become bored enough to decide to create the Earth and us along with it?
Do we still have a need for a God? Only the human species is sufficiently intelligent that he needs to explain the unexplained. Science is one road down which we can go to try and provide those explanations. The far easier road is to say “God did it”. End of story.
It does not really matter whether any individual is right or wrong in his belief or disbelief. But the use to which those beliefs and religions are put is important to the world and anything living on it. Religion used to keep people under some sort of moral control. Religion was a good idea, moral control was required, and religion provided a mechanism for that. It may never have done it particularly well, but at least the framework was there. However it has now failed, failed catastrophically to the point where religion is now being used as a tool and even a justification for causing trouble. Wars: overpopulation, terrorism…
( Now there is a question for those who say “Human life is sacred, a gift from God, and abortion and contraception are therefore wrong.” Why did God take the trouble to inspire us to create contraception if we now should not use it? If God exists surely his message is: “Look, I have shown you how to control your numbers, now go do it!” )
People must get used to the idea that dying is the complete and total end of it all for them. They may wish to help others and the next generations by what they choose to do in their lifetime, but that is about it. Your actions in life will only affect your life, not your afterlife. By all means take out an insurance policy, it may help the rest of us whilst you pay the premiums, but it won’t pay out profitably into your coffers and coffins.
These religious believers are all going to be very disappointed when, looking around after taking their final last gasp on this earth, they find there is absolutely nothing else. 
Nao
I misread that and laughed out loud:
I thought you had written: “Well, you atheists never listen to reason anyway, so no point in reading it.”
Nao
Nao,
Same statements and questions can apply to love. Even if there is no love, I’d rather believe there is. Even if there is no purpose to love, I’d rather do it anyway. And I cannot imagine being disappointed for living that way, when I take my final gasp on this Earth. God is love.
Love,
Billy
PM me what you liked about this. It sounds like a whole nother discussion, and I wonder why an Atheist would even go there.
Mark, I’m most curious, could you describe the GOD you stopped believing in?
And funny, am I the only proponent of GOD on this thread lately? If so…
Billy
my god is dog. i believe that the creaters of the bible were dislexic