Thanks so much DrD! This is all really useful points and suggestions and I kind of like both options you’ve suggested.
Sure I did wince at giving my hubs a sharp whack with a centre punch a bit, but never say never - although there’s just something neater about having the already prepare shim attached in the frame and providing a 6mm hole… as nature intended
You’ll probably shudder at the banal suggestion now from me, but after thinking about using a resin or the glass fibre stuff inserted in, I just wondered if I’d be safe to use say silicone sealer - bit like the stuff you get to put a line around your bath or sink. But of course something that isn’t bad for aluminium.
Weight penalty could be there as I guess it isn’t that light once I’ve filled up the entire fork leg - but…
Having said this, I am swinging back round to your idea of a resin injected in and letting gravity flow back down to seal in shim.
The ones you’ve suggested I suppose are safe to interact with aluminium? How viscous are we talking? I’m just wondering if it would run slowly enough to ensure that there isn’t a flow into the bearing mounts surface, as naturally I’d like to keep that uniform and without any additional layering up that might impact the bearings themselves by added extra pressure.
This idea seems the neatest so far as it would provide a sealed plug and the shim would be baked in there.
I’ll have to chew it over, while I also think long and hard if I’ll risk trying the loctite option into the frame itself - as while I’ll be careful the risk of losing it in the frame still haunts me!
I think silicone would be too viscous to flow. back down so you’d have to fill the whole thing, which I don’t think would be a good idea. Also I think that it is air curing so it wouldn’t set (it would be just like being in the tube it came out of.).
Folk cast things in polyester resin for artistic reasons, so it follows quite well – getting some of the stuff used for that would be the stuff to get – search for ‘casting resin’ – you’ll probably find lots of videos of people doing such things (haven’t looked). You can probably thin it as well, I haven’t looked into that in any detail.
If you did get resin leaking out onto the bearing surface you’d be able to cut/chisel/scrape it off back to the aluminium surface once it has cured so it shouldn’t affect that in any way. If you did do this, mask up the outside of your frame by wrapping it with masking tape – you don’t want any of this getting onto the outside of your frame. Polyester resin is soluble with acetone before it cures to you can clean stuff off before it cures, after that it would need to be mechanically removed and you don’t want to do that on the outside of your very nice new Flansberrium frame!
Bear in mind there is significant chance of making a mess with this stuff, you’d need to use a syringe with a reasonable bore on the end, but a 30-40cc disposable syringe would probably do the job in one mix. I’d try it to make sure you can get the stuff out before mix any hardener into the resin (don’t put anything unmixed into the frame though).
This stuff is completely inert as far as I know, it is slightly exothermic when it is curing, but if you are only putting a relatively small amount into the bottom of the frame leg I think it would be fine. I wouldn’t go filling up the whole frame with it – as well as the heat generated when it curing it would affect the mechanical properties of the frame when it is solid.
Silicone sealer gives off ethanoic acid as it cures (hence the vinegary smell) so I would avoid putting that into your frame for that reason as well.
Anyhow, this has all just been pretty dynamic thinking at the keyboard, but it might be the germ of an idea to get you sorted out without resorting to welding up the hole and (probably) milling out a 6mm hole and dressing up the inside of the bearing holder with a die grinder… I do think that would be the best overall solution but not the most practical without an AC TIG welder and a milling machine
Thanks again everyone for the help on this small but what appeared tricky issue.
I may still do the resin option suggested by @DrD but when I got round to using Loctite 648 (got some in the end!)
It wound up being a really really snug fit. The spacer Florian created was really hard to press into the 8mm hole and in fact it probably could have been left as a friction fit.
When I’d first tested the shim out I got the impression it could easily fall through into the frame leg.
My belief now that with the right fit and this loctite it ain’t going no where. Not least as I don’t believe it is directly under any load or major jostling. The odd bit perhaps from the nub holding back the torque reaction forces but this will be more like a press up / down to its 12 and 6 o’clock as it were.
They’ve both gone in nicely to my eyes and they’re just a hair lower than the surface of the bearing mount - which for me feels like a good thing so nothing is pressing on the bearings themselves.
I’m not likely to be installing wheels in these frames for 48 hours + so there’s lots of time for that to cure.
Anyway, thanks once again all for the suggestions and to those that have helped fix this shim-nanigans
With the new hubs - do we think the guidance from the old manual stands true?
Spokes —The hub has 36 spokes holes, designed for 2mm spokes. Check the direction of the spokes! The bent part must be positioned at the countersunk section of the spoke hole.
I ask as looking at the hub you’d instinctively install the heads of the spokes into the countersinking area.
I know we need a manual but I would really love to know peoples views.
This kind of contradicts the first bit of advice. But perhaps the point here is that for a hub where not all the holes have countersinking, then the holes that are countersunk are for the J-bend to not sit on a hard edge.
I still haven’t heard from Florian but I do have it on good authority that the spoke heads need to sit on the flat side, with the J-bend being on the countersunk side.
If I’d have built these wheels myself I’d have gone the other way, based on the visuals of the countersinking matching the heads of spokes. Hopefully this helps people avoid a rookie mistake with lacing etc
(Still curious what Florian says, but I now highly doubt he’ll go against this clearly understood wheel building principle)
That was a good find! There is a pdf of the advice that was shipped with some hubs a few posts on from that, and a little further on a good analysis of the issue:
I’d read it some months back, but only today went and looked at my 400 series hub that I laced 2 years back and realised Ive done it the wrong way! Those countersink are so inviting to put the spoke heads in and it looks so neat afterwards!
Now I need to decide if I’m going to rebuild the wheel - I’ve probably ridden it less than 500 miles…
They’re even more inviting when there are zero smaller countersunk holes on the off-holes. Meaning when you see holes that look like spoke head recesses, and holes that have nothing - you’re even more likely to think: ah ha, that’s when the heads must go!
I had a bit of a deja-vu feeling about all of this, not from the Schlumpf perspective as I don’t have one, but from other hubs, remembering how much better the spoke seemed to sit when the bend was in a countersunk hole.
It is a bit surprising that there isn’t a countersink on each side of the flange. I’ve built a couple of wheels with Schmitt hub dynamos (look for pictures of SON hub dynamos, eg the SON 28) – they have pretty deep countersinks on the outside which are exacerbated a bit because of the inward curvature of the flange. I seem to remember thinking that the J of the spoke sat pretty well in those countersinks. On the spokes with the heads on the outside they sit pretty well in the deep countersink but there is a shallow countersink on the inside as well for the bend. I had a look at one of the wheels and the spokes do look like they sit well at both sides of the flange.
I also had a very quick look at my Pipfax hub, which is still unbuilt for various reasons, and it has a countersink on each side too. I had a quick look at a Hope Pro4 rear hub and it is a bit difficult to see because it is built up and has a cassette and disc on it, but there is a slight countersink, maybe more of a debur/relief on each side of it.
Putting spoke washers under the heads on the un-countersunk side of the Schlumpf. as suggested by your wheel builder, is really a bit like providing a countersink I suppose!
I totally agree this is strange as previous versions - or shall we say the last one has countersinks on each and every hole but the bigger ones are the ones according to that screenshot above, where spokes should for those hubs go.
I note with these new hubs the flange for the disc side is thicker and I am going to say this is due to it taking greater tensions due to being asymmetrical.
I can only presume that Florian decided to only countersink alternating holes as not having a countersink for the spoke heads is either stronger, or having one there would be a a weakness again from the two differing spoke tensions for disc and non-disc sides.
Or I suppose there could be a third option and it is a mistake, but I’m inclined to trust Florian’s design approach.
Hubs of yesteryear seem to be of this new 2022 Schlumpf ilk, so it can be done (to countersink alternating holes)
I believe these new hubs also have their flanges out wider than previous generation so spoke clearance can/might be an issue. My thinking is that when built with spoke heads on a flat / non-recessed surface, this brings their outside protrusion at the J-bend to a minimum.
I’m really pleased to have settled on using washers. It may not be that common a practice but seeing those old posts above I can see people have opted for this with their Schlumpfs and in this case I simple don’t see it hurting anything.
Black hub, brass washers, silver CX Rays - pretty cool combo methinks when dropped into a raw silver frame
New wheel day should be Monday / Tuesday, and let’s keep fingers crossed there’s no major headaches fitting to frame or adding brake
I am uncertain if I put my spokes in the wrong way. How I put them in felt natural (head in the dent). This caused the spoke bent to look out too much on the other side and now they are rubbing at the brake. Also noticed that @mindbalance wheel was laced the other way.
Has anyone extra information how it should be?
I think this is the wrong way as the intuitive way would be to put spoke heads into the countersinks - but this does not appear to be how Florian previously intended.
It’s all explained here:
See the post directly and then expand the embedded posts - plus old PDF that explains how on older hubs the wrong way was cutting into the hub body.
You can see in my instagram how the wheel build looks when does the right way, plus with the use of washers
Edit: I should just add there’s a 1% chance that Florian comes to us with a new manual tomorrow or later this week which changes this all - but personally I would highly doubt this and find it pretty odd. It seems pretty clear that the countersinks are for the J-bend curve
Mmmm this was something I kind of feared we might face. Not totally sure the other way of spoking the wheel will fix this - I always wonder if the hub was ever prototyped and tested or just designed to theoretically functioning.
Does the rotor fit and spin in the calliper correctly? I’ve been wondering about using washers to move the rotor out from the hub for that kind of alignment issues…
But for yours it could be helped by spoking the wheel the other way (we’ll call it the “right” way unless Florian corrects this!)
The next option would be to start seeing which brakes rub and which don’t and if it is close I’d be thinking of filing a bit of the metal off off the calliper body (but that would be a last resort!)
I haven’t tested the disc yet, but I am pretty sure that it doesn’t fit. But I definitely think with some spacers underneath the disc and longer bolts it will fit. We had this, but way worse one the first Freewheel Qu-Ax prototype and it was (partly) solvable and durable that way. It’s an older Shimano SLX brake on it.
