surely u can’t make such a sweeping statement without estasblishing what the ‘allowed’ equipment should be?
it’s been mentioned on this thread that one of the current records (which i haven’t seen anybody contest) was set on a 42" wheel
surely if u take issue with a geared uni, u should establish a wheelsize limit?
why not rather allow any and all riders on one human-powered wheel (we can discuss fixed hubs later) to have a go at the record and if a group of ‘purists’ would prefer to keep a seperate ‘36"only’ record, they will be free to do so?
to prescribe what can or can’t be used in record-attempts is a slippery slope that can easily lead to innovators and innovations (such as geared unis, that most everyone on this board seem to believe is ‘a good thing’ for the sport) be strangled in their creative endeavours
if u can’t test your new equipment at the top end of the sport (i.e. record attempts), where can u test it?
(ps. my mention of ‘purists’ in the post above suddenly struck me, on second read, as seemingly disparaging
it was not intended in this way and i hope the ''s will remove this impression)
“why not rather allow any and all riders on one human-powered wheel (we can discuss fixed hubs later) to have a go at the record and if a group of ‘purists’ would prefer to keep a seperate ‘36"only’ record, they will be free to do so?”
Surely this “unlimited” class must be an option. For starters, it will provide the most innovation, since folks will all be trying to come up with the next best thing, and the sport will eventually benefit from all the experimentation.
Relative to other sports, a speed record recorded on a non-geared 24 inch uni is pretty “cave,” even thouugh it’s an impressive accomplishment. The geared option brings the whole shebang to a much higher level, and soon expect crazy speeds to be achieved and maintained over 60 minute periods, as well as top speed trials.
Enjoy these developments, because it’s one of those rare times when an adventure sport is just coming of age. In 50 years folks will look back on the nascent geared speed work and present-day Muniing as the “Golden Age.” In other words, if you’re interested in speed and Muni, it’s a very good time to be alive bacause standards are being set as we read!
By definition, the event is limited in scope, by the requirement that you only have one wheel. Also it seems for the IUF records, they outlaw geared giraffes. My opinion is that for the purposes of standard records, a unicycle should be defined as a one wheeled direct drive vehicle where the cranks are attached to a wheel axle which directly drives the wheel and the pedals are directly attached to the cranks.
Philosophically, I think geared unis are cool as pieces of engineering and I’m sure are cool toys, but it seems to me that geared unicycles lose one of the fundamentally cool things about unicycles, which is the simplicity. Effectively a chain geared unicycle is a fixed wheel bike with the front wheel taken off. The only unicycle like . Even with the schlumpf gears you just can’t see the complexity inside the hub. Pragmatically it’s great that you can go faster, but it just isn’t the same thing.
If you don’t outlaw them in record attempts, you end up with a situation where someone relatively unfit can get a record, which other riders without access to the technology can’t, like the bicycle ‘human powered vehicle’ records, where only people with expensive custom designs can compete and it’s arguably much more about the technology than skill. I think until most riders have geared unis and they don’t cost a fortune, this argument is somewhat about whether you think the record is about athletic achievement or a combination of athletic achievement and the ability to make or purchase very expensive unicycles.
In bicycling, recumbent bikes still get built despite not being allowed to attempt the standard world records. Unicycles still get built, despite not being allowed to attempt UCI records. Tri-bars etc. still get made.
A split of two classifications of unicycles is going to be the best way to go. With a geared and non geared standard, those who have geared access can continue to push the technology further. Perhaps there are only a small number of events that are recognized, or even achieved: furthest distance and fastest time in one hour or in 24 hours.
Guinness Records will be most interested in what sells; that’s their point, to sell books and show amusing humans on TV. For them it is in their best interest to have faster unicycles, geared or not.
World records come with one other price tag: Determination. Funding, ability and practicality all become details to a passionate person who has a dream to push the boundary of human achievement further.
I have absolutely no problem with a geared unicycle being used for the records. It is still very much a unicycle and certainly isn’t like a giraffe just because of the chain.
As long as the geared unicycle has the cranks in line with the center of the wheel (like a standard unicycle) then it’s a standard unicycle whether it’s geared or not. The other limitation I would make is that the unicycle is fixed geared.
No need to divide things up into geared and non-geared classes.
If you’re worried about unfair advantages then you might as well define a universal standard unicycle that will be used for record attempts and not allow anyone to use anything different. Just lock it in to that design for ever and ever.
I work in TV production and at one time I used to actually make the original Guinness ABC Inernational special that filmed people BASE jumping off cliffs and doing outrageous stuff. So if Guinness is the arbiter, bank on the most outrageous stuff garnering the attention. For example, if someone has the sack and athletic skill to peddle a geared uni 30 miles an hour, don’t think that won’t make it into the book, if not onto the cover.
Like I said, you just include an unlimited “geared” catagory in the record business. Someone in average shape might get the record, but don’t expect it to last long. In a matter of a few years there will be hundreds of geared unis out there – of that you may be sure.
What’s the problem with giraffes re/speed records?
A giraffe IS a unicycle… and if someone can break the speed record on a giraffe… more power to them!
I’m not sure that I have the athletic skill, but I’ve definitely got the sack to give it a try… so if someone wants to lend me a geared uni - I would definitely give it my best effort to hit 30MPH… or as close as I can get!
I would be concerned, however, about damaging the uni due to a UPD at high speed… which seems like it would probably be inevitable (at some point during training).
Wow. All this discussion is great! I guess the way to settle things is for everyone to submit their opinions to the IUF. The IUF web site was just modified to allow comments on the upcoming 2006 rules for use in the Switzerland UNICON. Good timing, as by then the geared wheel access issue will be all but gone. If we want to control our own destiny, just like the jugglers, then it’s up to the IUF to adopt new rules and recognize the new wheel sizes and configurations.
Vivalargo: I know it’s nothing personal and I don’t take it that way, but I’d say I was in pretty darn good shape, far beyond “average”. I don’t think you really have to worry about someone in “average” shape getting a world record in an exertion category!
Just a general comment: technical innovation and sophistication (not the same thing) are essential parts of any bicyclist’s attempt to compete today, let alone go for records. These include use of exotic materials and designs, computer modeling, wind tunnel tests, sophisticated clothing and food, dedicated sports medicine, specialized training machines, multi-location training schedules, multi-person support teams, sponsorship by many companies, and the list goes on.
Saying that a record isn’t meaningful if a person can’t compete on an off-the-shelf single-speed Schwinn bicycle from Wal-Mart is not really relevant.
I don’t mean to say that a category of competition where the unicycle parameters are fixed or limited is not valid. It is valid, just different.
This is similar to sailing, where “single class” races essentially force all competitors to use the same boat setup. The emphasis is on sailing skill, some rigging changes, and race tactics. Yet, the solo around-the-world races and records continue to push the state-of-the-art of sailing technology, computer and communications technology, remote medicine, solo sailing techniques, boat design, and the like.
My comment about fitness was directed not to you, rather to this post:
“Even if access to geared wheels is less limited, it’s still putting an extra price premium on specialized equipment for anyone who wants to challenge it, whereas currently you could just buy a stock coker and challenge pretty much any of the records by training up, so they’re truly records of athleticism and skill, rather than of technology purchasing ability.”
I’m stoked that you went out and got after that record. Perhaps more important, in the long run, than your actual performance, is the fact that you were the first person to go after any record on a geared uni, thus establishing the “unlimited” catagory. And for speed records, make no mistake about it: while folks are peddling themselves stupid on fixed axel rigs (no harm in that), the adventure will be happening in the fast lane, where the geared unis are smoking along at 25+ MPH.
Nothing wrong with giraffes regarding speed records. I just think a giraffe would be a different category than the standard style unicycle where the cranks are in line with the center of the wheel.
If there are going to be two unicycle classes then the classes should be standard unicycles (including the designs like the Schlumpf hub and Pete’s jack shaft drive) and giraffes. And that’s currently the way Guinness considers things.
Defining a giraffe class would require some consensus to define exactly what it means to be a giraffe. How high does it need to be? Can it be geared up? Wheel size?
Stefan Gauler set an hour mark for a giraffe. The info on the record is on his records web page: Meine Einradweltrekorde.
Why limit it to just two classes? I think there should be separate classes for non-geared, geared, and giraffe… so you would essentially have: non-geared standard, geared standard, non-geared giraffe, and geared giraffe. Of couse what about wheel sizes… I suppose you could also have separate classes for each different wheel size!
Wow… that’s really cool! I assume they use comas instead of decimal points in Germany and his average speed was 16.048 KPH, not 16,000 KPH ! That’s just a tad under 10 MPH -pretty darn good for a giraffe!
I think I can do better, however, with the technological advantage of my geared giraffe!
Therefore… drawing inspiration from Pete, I will attempt to break Stefan’s record on my geared giraffe at the velodrome in Queens, NY. I will start training ASAP!
Thanks, John… without your bringing this to my attention, I would never have thought to attempt to break such a record… I didn’t even know such a record even existed!
It will be pretty simple (and relatively inexpensive ) for someone else to challenge my record (assuming I am successful at breaking Stefan’s record, that is - which is far from a sure thing) because you can gear up a giraffe pretty easily.
Falling off and freemounting (especially when I’m tired) could really eat away at my speed… so I’ll have to try real hard not to fall off. Am I even allowed to fall off?
Thanks JL! I sincerely appreciate your support and encouragement!
Andrew, Stefan’s web pages are where I got the idea of breaking the record. Stefan is quite the accomplished cyclist, but I wonder where he rode off to in recent years?
His 'raffe record is cool, and innovative. You’ve shown your capability on your 'raffe, and you can do it! Go for it!
Someone earlier asked about the Guinness guidelines, and they decide world records on a case-by-case basis. They use the applicable governing body’s recognition if there is any, so they don’t have to go through all the rigor-more-all of developing their own regulations. As John says, they don’t want to be in the business of regulating various sports.
On the wheel class issue, I think the geared wheels should be classified according to their theoretical size. If you had a 24" geared up 1.5 to an effective 36", you should be allowed to run in the 36" wheel class, along with direct drive cokers.
The more classes there are the more thinned out the attempts will be for each class. Limiting wheel sizes for individual speed records is not a good idea. For group races on a track (like we do at conventions) the wheel size restrictions make some sense because it would be really messy to have 8 people on Cokers trying to ride around a running track at full speed while trying to stay within their lane. It would be a mess and dangerous. For individual time trial events that is not an issue and I see no reason to have wheel size be a factor in dividing up any classes.
But that’s also why the IUF should regulate these record attempts so they can set sensible and consistent rules. Otherwise Guinness is going to be setting rules that might not make sense to unicycles.
i understand that argument in the ‘human powered vehicle’ classes where u get in/on, lie back and pedal like hell
i do think we need to factor in the additional level of difficulty that riding on one wheel introduces to this discussion
the geared up uni does allow for greater speed, but it is at a cost
the rider needs to be ‘more skillfull’ to maintain record speeds on such a machine as opposed to a ‘standard’ uni
your thoughts?
BTW, how do we get some kind of feedback from office bearers of the unicycling organisations on this issue?
Gearing a unicycle actually means the fittest person (eventually) will hold the record, as it is quite a different skill to riding a fixed axle unicycle. On a fixed wheel, it’s not necessarily who has the strongest legs/lungs that go the fastest, it’s the person who can peddle the fastest. Once we gear ourselves up, then it’s going to be much more fitness related because the person can match a gear to their technique and strengths.
I don’t have a problem with geared unicycles. I see a parallel with the bicycling community- no one remembers when derailleurs and gears were introduced, but they caused just as much debate in 2 wheeled circles when they first came out.
On the other hand, we are not bicycling and there is no need to go down that path. I too like the simplicity of a fixed axle unicycle. It’s one of the reasons I ride a unicycle as well as a bike- see my recent thread “why I prefer unicycle racing to bicycle racing” and you see my point.
My personal preference would be for a 2 class category- fixed and geared; regulated by the IUF. Guinness can use the geared category (or whichever is fastest) in it’s record database, because they are only interested in what is fastest/furthest/biggest/ etc etc. It is up the IUF to keep more detailed records with separate categories.
With regards to technology- people that go out to break records are usually a determined bunch- I don’t think cost comes into the equation too much. If you look at any record- people always upgrade their machines to the limits of what the rules and regulations allow. My Coker used in the 24hr record was far from a Std Coker- tubeless kit, SS spokes, carbon seat etc. If I thought I needed to drill holes in my rim and make a carbon frame to lighten it further I probably would have done so.
! That’s just a tad under 10 MPH -pretty darn good for a giraffe!