Kids, Divorce & What's an "Unhealthy Marriage?"

Off-topic
1

The kids are no reason for staying in an unhealthy marriage. Unhealthy means domestic violence, chronic substance abuse and chronic infidelity, right? This accounts for only 10% - 15% of divorces.

However, many couples divorce from marriages that are not “unhealthy,” marriages which are simply conflictual, boring or distant. Ethyl “T T” and I have gone through periods like this.

Research tells us that children do better when couples in these marriages stay together and learn how to work out their differences [Psychotherapy Networker, Nov/Dec 2005, p10].

Your thoughts?

Billy

2

Okay.
I speak for myself and from my own experience only.

I divorced my first husband after 8 years. It was shortly after completing my nurse training and I realising that I didn’t have to live with him constantly putting me down. As an example, he once did not speak to me for 3 days after miss hearing something that I said on the phone. Somehow he found out he had made a mistake and started to talk to me again but he never appologised or told me what he thought I had said. After 8 years of this type of behaviour I didn’t have the energy to try to work out our differences.

Actually, he started drinkning the xmas I started my training and did not stop. So he probably counts for the chronic substance abuse anyway.

For the last 8 years I have been extremely happily married to my second husband and have no plans for divorce yet. :slight_smile:
Ofcourse our relationship isn’t always perfect but I have no regrets. The kids from marriage number one are doing OK too.

Cathy

3

Ah, if you could only jump forward in time and ask them when they are adults how they were really affected by the situation…

Not to say that it’d be negative, it may be a positive thing for them, but how do you measure if your kids are doing OK or not, great or not, bad or not, whatever or not? Inherently, I think everyone has their own problems of some sort and the environment does considerably affect that, especially when someone is young and not always thinking for themself.

(dang, I saw billy make a new thread and I wanted to stay out of it. oh well. i gave in to the stimulation)

4

dang, I saw Gilby make a new posting and I wanted to stay out of it. oh well. i gave in to the stimulation.

C’mon Gilby. It’s not like you to TRY to stir up controversy. Any teacher, or any 4th grader, or even you after one play-date, can tell you who has more problems. As democratic as we try to be, some rise to mental health and some to illness. You can check the stats if you like. There are also measures available on-line, with a high level of reliability and validity. Ask CathWood. She’s an expert on this stuff, and she’s helped me ALOT.

Billy

5

At the time of the divorce I measured their okayness by their daily behaviour and the fact that they continued to do ok at school.

But actually Gilby, they are adults. Jessica is 22 and Rachel is 20. Both are in the ‘caring’ profession. Jessica is a care assistant in a Care Home for the elderly and Rachel is a support worker for adults with psychosis. Both are successfully running thier adult lives.

Cathy

6

And I’m sure these opinions, and these figures, are absolute. Wow, glad that part was so easy! :stuck_out_tongue:

This topic is kind of connected to that “right and wrong” topic. What’s good for a marriage is determined not just by what’s “good” for the husband and wife, but by all family members. If husband and wife go through life unhappy and argumentative, this will reflect onto the kids. Perhaps it’s better for them to get divorced, and better for the kids to be shuttled back and forth between two happier, more vibrant households.

Obviously there is no single right answer to this one. Even when taken on a case-by-case basis, it will still be a matter of guesswork to determine the “best” solution in many cases.

My parents divorced for numerous reasons (some minor, some major), which amounted to neither of them being happy with their lives. The kids were all adults by then, so it was probably much easier for them to take that step than had we been younger. But we did all still live at home at the time. I believe they are much happier now than they would have been had they stayed together. I am happy because they are happy.

7

The article in Psychotherapy Networker is not online yet, but it will be at http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa4016 at some point.

My thoughts are that the trouble is finding out if the marriage is so conflicual that it’s unhealthy. How unhealthy a divorce is also depends alot on how you handle it, how old the children are etc. etc. I don’t have any personal experience to speak from, but from pure unreliable intuition I would say that the most important thing is that both parents continue to be as involved in the kids’ lives as possible.

Side note: While writing this post I looked up the words divorcer (Person that effects a divorce) and divorcee (Divorced woman). So if my wife divorces me, she becomes a divorcer, but I don’t become a divorcee? Or would my gender change :astonished: ? I’m off to buy her flowers.

8

Look up parental alienation

John,

Just like any unicycling “injury,” there are no absolutes, but after a while you learn to stop doing the damaging thing, I hope. And no, you don’t need research to make this decision.

Hopefully, you’ll ackowledge that there are SOME things that are not good for kids. This is not in the right/wrong category, however, because it can be purely pragmatic–ie., what outcome are you seeking? and is this the means to that end?

Look up parental alienation if you want to see what parents do to kids when they are waging war against their ex-spouse.

It should be obvious that I wasn’t looking to stir up controversy here, so I’m out of this discussion.

Billy
“Each time a man stands up for an ideal, or acts to improve the lot of others, or strikes out against injustice, he sends forth a tiny ripple of hope, and crossing each other from a million different centers of energy and daring, those ripples build a current that can sweep down the mightiest walls of oppression and resistance.” --Robert F. Kennedy

9

The Squid and the Whale

I just saw the movie: The Squid and the Whale.

No violence and no explicit sex, but a super movie about a parent’s divorce and their two kids, in Park Slope Brooklyn, in 1985.

Super.

10

Sadly I live in the consistently highest divorce rate state, Nevada. We’ve been number one in divorce rates for decades…

Luckily my parents have stayed happilly married and together. Most of the people I talk to assume everyone just lives with one parent, since the majority of kids these days do.

Everyone handles it differnetly, I even know kids who are glad their parents divorced, since it was for the better.

Divorce happens, and I can understand why, people just need to chill…

11

Wow, that’s a very selctive definition, especially if taken literally - you put “and” rather than “or”, and especially if you mean “chronic” in the proper sense of “long-term” rather than the popular sense of “really bad”.

I was in a very unhealthy marriage indeed. There was no domestic violence. There was no substance abuse. As far as I am aware, there was no infidelity. If there was (and I had my suspicions at the time) then it was only in the last few months when the marriage was already dead in the water.

Fortunately, there were no kids.

My unhealthy marriage was unhealthy in that we were unable to stay in the house together for even one evening a week. We couldn’t discuss anything amicably. We ended up hating the sight of each other, having found that once the initial excitement of lurve had worn off, we didn’t actually like each other. It drove me to the edge of suicide, and after I left, I’m given to understand that the “backlash” put my wife into therapy. That unhealthy enough?

So, less of the tightly worded definitions, please.

I was the child of divorced parents. They divorced before I was old enough to understand - and that was around 1964. I was told I was the only kid with divorced parents in the whole school, and it was a matter of shame and secrecy. My parents never spoke civilly to each other until my grandfather’s funeral in about 2003. I never saw domestic violence or solvent abuse, and I believe there was no infidelity. I’m sure the experience of mutually hostile parents shaped my life and personality.

But on the other hand, my partner/girlfriend, Ruth has two kids (now 21 and 23 (er… I think) and divorced from their father when the kids were around 8 and 10. They were at school surrounded by other kids with separated or divorced parents, and although it wasn’t always easy, it was fairly normal for them. Both parents loved the girls, and they had a fairly stable life, spending time with each parent, and both extended families on a predictable and regular basis. They’ve grown up to make their parents and me very proud.

The effect of staying together or separating, staying married or divorcing will vary depending on the social context. However, the effect of constantly being exposed to an atmosphere of hostility in the house will always be bad - whether it is cold hostily, or daily shouting matches, or mild or serious violence. Kids need stability, and good role models, and a caring environment. Whether the parents share a bedroom, or even an address, is less important.

12

I wont quote it cos it’s too long, but nicely put Mikefule.

Cathy

13

Mike: I was mainly quoting from the article, and that’s their definition, so I’m glad to have your input. We can create a better definition together, and achieve greater, as we have done in the past.

  1. Causality is an interesting point in cases wherein one partner becomes suicidal. Is the marriage making the partner suicidal, or is the depression bringing down the marriage, or is there a bi-causal relationship in which the depr/suic and marital difficulties mutually escalate each other?

  2. The article was irrelevant to situations when no kids are involved. But the implication was that people call the executioner for marriages which are not terminal, so the divorce becomes a new adjustment problem for the kids.

  3. Short of neglect or abuse, people are free to do whatever they want and make their own needs a priority over the needs of their kids. Everyone does to some extent, as far as sharing their own time etc with their kids. It’s an individual decision.

  4. Given their own values, people may wrongly stay together for the kids, and wrongly separate. That is, their action fails to achieve their own values. They may fail to give full consideration to whether their conduct expresses the way in which they may wish to provide more for their children (or even make their own pleasure a priority–whatever their value is).

  5. Research can help people get the outcomes they desire.

  6. I hope I achieved a modicum of clarity this time.

  7. I still recommend the movie.

Billy

14

Most of the problems with modern western society arise from people trying to get what they desire, but without first putting serious thought into what they desire, and why.

Western society as a whole lacks any deep moral or philosophical grounding. Individual freedom is elevated too far above the general good, and individual duty is seldom mentioned.

So people get into marriages and start families without fully understanding (or even attempting to understand) the massive commitments involved. Then things go wrong, they look for happiness elsewhere, almost at whatever cost.

The trick is to become happy with yourself, then share that happiness with the right people.

15

Leave it to Reknowned Anarchist MikeFule to emphasize personal responsibility. I’m down with that.

I hesitate to endorse your last comment about the trick. There are as many paths to the truth as there are hearts of humanity.

16

Hmmm. That sounds profound on first reading. What it means is, “I’m not sure I agree with you. Everyone is different.”

My comment on the trick was a throwaway at the end of a longer post, but it is something I think is worth elaborating.

Too many people (most people?) look for happiness outside themselves. At any given time, I have friends looking for happiness by escaping a partner, and friends looking for happiness by finding the right partner. Some are looking for the perfect job, others for the perfect holiday, car, house…

If you look to fill a gap in your self with something that can be taken away from you, or can walk away from you, then the gap is still there. The ideal, whether you are religious or not, has to be to reach a state in which you are happy and comfortable with yourself. That way, your happiness is dependent on nothing over which you have no control.

Having learned to love yourself, trust yourself and respect yourself (which are three ways of saying the same thing) then you can go on to achieve pleasure and enhanced happiness from your relationships with others, without becoming dependent on them. If you are not dependent on someone, then a source of friction and discontent is removed. You enjoy each other’s company for its own sake. You can grow together because you want to, not because you feel you have to.

17

Yes. Dependency guarantees dissatisfaction in the long run.

18

I am becoming increasingly of the opinion that happiness is not a realistic goal. Distress is ubiquotous in the human mind and according to some people, this is one of the side effects of our development of the use of language. The best we can hope for is acceptance ie accept distress and don’t try to push it away, accept happiness and don’t try to cling on to it. Live in the moment and experience all experiences without trying to hide from the unpleasant ones. And living your life the way you want to despite distress. Living life according to what you value.

This may be so on a societal level, but in my experience most people have commitment and a sense of duty to those they care about (on a personal level).

Ultimately I want someone who can walk with me on life’s great journey. Who can let me grow and tolerate my eccentricities and still walk beside me. I thought I had that initially but we grew apart and could no longer walk the same road. I know that while we are both alive my husband and I will walk together. Yeah, sometimes there’s a bit of pushing and shoving (metaphorically speaking) going on and sometimes there’s lack of interest or fear, but it’s all part of life’s rich journey.

Cathy

19

Threadjacked long ago

Cathy: So your social environment made you eccentric? Made you pessimistic about achieving happiness?

Billy