Heres a riddle I just cant solve.
what do any of us really want
Money.
a 180/360+full rev backward crankflip off uh somethin’(i suppose thats a hickflip but i dont say that word so whatever)
the girl i like to go out with me
world peace
in that order
Wow, I can’t believe someone is using my word…HICKFLIP. Ha thats funny. KH.
The freedom to choose?
Cathy
We attribute freedom to an individual (and ourselves) when the contingencies which guide the behavior is not apparent to us. --BF Skinner, To Freedom Condemned
Billy
Doesn’t mean it’s necessarily so though.
Cathy
Exactly!!!
Even further, Skinner seems to be suggesting (unless I’m going too far) that freedom does not truly exist, it’s just something we incorrectly attribute to people. Our behavior is controlled by our reinforcement history, as is our perception of options.
Billy
Prostitutes really want Chuck Norris, but knowing they could not possibly handle mannliness on that order of magnitude, they try to make it up in quantity over quality, but know that there are not enough men on the planet.
I’ve not read that particular book, but the argument is a familiar one.
It’s a simple variation on the familiar free will:predestination debate.
It is important to separate “cause” from “purpose”. A purpose may be a type of cause, or it might only be a way that we perceive a set of sub-causes. Purpose is associated with perception; cause is associated with events following in sequence.
So, our actions are either:
Totally caused (by events, genetics, reinforcement history, limited options, etc.) This is predestination (but without necessarily imply “destiny” in any metaphysical sense.)
Not totally caused - although no one could reasonably dispute that there is a large element of causation. The bit left over (if there is one) would be “free will”.
The argument for “totally caused” is fairly simple. Working backwards, my decision to act now now is based on the options presented to me by external circumstances, and my assessment of those circumstances - an assessment which arises purely from my personality. My personality is the result of previous decisions, experiences, and my temperament, and my temperament is the result of my genetic heritage. By the time you are old enough able to “make decisions”, you have already “been given” your genetic heritage, your base temperament, an environment, and some experiences. If we could know every detail up to the present, then we could predict every future event. This is of course, totally untestable.
Aha, but then we see Burridan’s ass. (Ooer, no, stoppit! etc.
) Burridan did the thought experiment of placing a donkey equidistant between two identical bales of hay. If the hay bales were perfectly identical, and the donkey were to be exactly half way between them, then the donkey would starve, unable to choose one bale or the other.
But of course, the donkey would not really starve. It would choose a bale.
It follows that the bales were not identical (one fresher or sweeter smelling?); or that the donkey was slightly closer to one than the other; or that there were other external factors (wind direction?); or that the donkey had a predisposition to turn to the left or the right in such circumstances - a predisposition arising from something in its genetic or historical “make up”.
Or, if all of these things were perfect, with no difference between the bales, no difference in the distance, no external factors, and no “predisposition”, then the donkey must have made its decision as a result of “free will”, right?
Except that if all the variables had been perfectly eliminated or balanced (perfectly: this is a thought experiment, remember) then the donkey would have no criteria on which to base its alleged free will decision, so its decision would be random.
Free will then becomes this: that when there are no external data on which to base a decision, and no relevant internal predispositions that are the result of prior causes, then the entity with free will can make a purely random decision.
Hmmmm.
Of course, this is pure speculation because none of this is testable. It is therefore not scientific. But it does give us an insight into the nature of the free will:predestination debate. Either there are reasons why we choose X instead of Y, or the decision is random. If there are reasons, and we count “reasons” as including our personalities, which are the result of prior reasons, ad infinitum, then the decision is in a sense predetermined.
However, in real life we can never know all of the facts. We still have to go through the process of believing that we agonise over each decision, and weigh the pros and cons. We never know what we are going to decide until the moment that we decide it. It feels like we have free will.
In fact, if we choose to believe in predestination, we have no choice but to believe that we freely decided to do so. 
No donkeys (or asses) were hurt in the making of this post.
Mikefule:
You GO, boy!!
Billy
Hmmm. How’d that happen? Why did a 
appear in place of a “p”?
Well, blow me, I’ve just discovered that if you type a colon followed by a p then the forum automatically puts a there.
Gasp! This thread is becoming all asses and colons.
One of the numerous evils of emoticons. Were they but alive so that I could torture them.
I too, hate emoticons… and those damm abreviations… damm kids.
In that order?
Below the posting window is a checkbox “Disable smilies in text”.
Ticking it will ensure that you don’t have that problem.
Now that the rep-system is gone, it is the handiest thing on the fora.
all they want is money, and a small dose of aids or ghonnorea or whatever… and maybe become ppl who meet ppl like famous
So knowledgeable and cynical at 15. You’re about the same age as the girl I walked past on my way home from the office Christmas party in December.
It was about 1:00 in the morning, white frost on the ground, and I was cold walking briskly in a jacket, scarf and hat. She was standing on duty in a gateway, bare legs, short skirt, thin top, and waiting for a stranger to abuse her, and (if she’s lucky) pay her money - some of which which will then go to her pimp, who she probably naively thinks is looking after her.
When she saw me, approaching, she was sizing me up - was I a potential punter? There was a mixture of fear and hope in her face.
When she saw I wasn’t a punter or about to assault her, she visibly relaxed and wished me good night. I remarked, “You must be freezing, out in this weather,” and she replied, “No, I’ve only just come back out, so I’m still warm. I’m lucky though.”
“…back out”. Think about that.
What could I say? She was only a teenager, and already condemned to that life, but still with a vestige of pride. All I could think of was to wish her good luck - which came out as the tone of voice I would use when sympathising with a friend. She thanked me and smiled.
This is a true story, and not exaggerated for effect, or sentimentalised.
So, what did that prostitute want? A way out of an impossibly deep pit of despair? A warm room and a hot meal? A hug from someone who cared? To be spoken to as a human being by someone who didn’t want something from her? Certainly not to be walking the streets in sub zero temperatures, half dressed, and waiting to be exploited and abused to pay for the drugs that mask the pain, and with no way out of it.
It’s easy to fall into prostitution - all you need is to be very unlucky in your choice of parents or country of birth, and to make a few unwise decisions in difficult circumstances. Many 15 year olds make unwise decisions under no pressure at all. How easy is it to stop being a prostitute when it’s all you’ve known?
As I said, the freedom to chose.
Cathy
Yes and no.
The freedom to choose whether to have sex with a particular person or not: yes.
The freedom to choose whether to stand in the cold at midnight, waiting for something unpleasant to happen: yes.
And so on for each of the individual horrible aspects of the lifestyle into which circumstances and disastrous decisions have thrown them.
But most people hate making big choices. I suspect that many people in a dreadful mess want someone to pick them up, get them out of the mess, and show them how to avoid getting back into it.
Some poor kid or young woman who is tired, frightened, beaten, despised, and probably (statistically) addicted to drugs, doesn’t want the freedom to choose how to get out of the mess, because she sees every night what has happened as a result of her previous choices. She will probably lack confidence in her own judgement, and be in reinforcing-cycle of despair and low self esteem.
My friend was a Police Sergeant for many years and came into contact with many of the local prostitutes. He tells stories of lovely girls with great senses of humour, and some who were just dangerous to know. They are not all the same.
He took his daughter to a good (fee paying) school near to a red light district, and after he had taken early retirement, he started to collect her after school in his car. Imagine his embarrassment when all the local prostitutes made a point of saying hello to him by name in front of the other parents. As a custody sergeant, he had met most of the girls many times.