Helmets: Do you wear one? Why? When?

wait, so you found out that using a helmet was a good thing in a accident, but then decided they were to hot? why would you do that?
I guess I would rather have some discomfort while riding, then to find out that I needed a helmet on a ride.

I think even Ian would agree that if you determine that a helmet is an asset, you should wear it.

I understand that if you determine that it is more dangerous to wear a helmet, not to wear one. I don’t believe that it is more dangerous, but at least he has made a logical decision based on his beliefs. To me it seems illogical to determine a helmet is safer, then not wear one.

That’s dialect. Both “try to” and “try and” are common. In mediaeval English, “and” had a conditional sense, similar to word “if”. With this in mind, “try and” makes perfect sense as a contraction of “Try and see if I can…”

I am sure that this is what Kilian had in mind.

Really. So wearing full body armour (as worn by MTBers) would be safer than not wearing it, so, in pursuit of logic, you wear full body armour on every ride, without fail?

Rational decisions are made by comparing complex sets of benefits and disadvantages and choosing an appropriate balance for the circumstances.

On a hot day, I might rationally decide that the certainty of being too hot for comfort in a helmet outweighed the very small probability of the helmet being needed for protection on the ride I have planned.

On a technical ride or in heavy traffic, I might decide that he helmet is essential despite the discomfort - or I might even choose not to ride.

Mike you got me on that one. I don’t wear full body armor all the time, only when I want to push my limits and that increases my chance of crashing.
I guess I should have asked for more information. Do you wear it when you are at the edge of your limit, as you may have been when you crashed the first time or do you not wear it all the time.

And if I’m only driving my car a couple blocks to the store, I don’t wear my seat belt, and I disable the airbags. I only need those things when I’m driving further distances, or in heavier traffic. :roll_eyes: :roll_eyes: ;):wink:

don’t most car accidents happen close to home? Or was I just told that when I was young so I would wear my seat belt all the time.

Going against my better judgement, I’ll feed the troll now…

This sounds like the same “argument” the anti-seatbelt crowd uses… the slight chance of being trapped in one’s burning automobile is enough to keep them from wearing their belts.

You seem to be producing all sorts of observational evidence to support your “argument”, but where is common sense? Perhaps you lost that with a head injury on a helmetless ride some time long ago? Common sense tells us not to touch the stove when it’s hot, and not to play in traffic… but does it tell us to undertake a risky activity without readily available safety gear?

I’ve skinned my palms when I didn’t wear gloves, I’ve bashed my shins when I don’t wear my leg guards, why should I ever suffer a head impact? Common sense says “cover those things you don’t want to injure”. Plain and simple.

Whip out as much scientific jargon as you like, as many statistics as you like, you still can’t beat out common sense. With one swift stroke of Occam’s razor, your long-winded rants fall to pieces.

The thin ground beneath your weak argument is crumbling, Ian. What is your motivation, here? Run out of dogs to kick? Stolen the lunch money from all the kids on your block?

Unfortunately for everyone, common sense is uncommon, which is why some of us need helmets. Ians argument seems to be full of common sense to me- the statistics suggesting helmets to be compulsory for bikes don’t add up, even less so for unicycles. A unicycle lacks the pivot point (handlebars) that bikes have that causes people to be flipped onto their head. You are morelikely to faceplant than land on your head- so where are the full face helmet advocates? Common sense is what helmet wearers lack- which is why they need to overcompensate with protection anyway.

By all means wear one if it gives you a false sense of safety… I think we are more likely to die of America’s nuclear paranoia and anti-terrorist bombs than falling on your head.

Re: Helmets: Do you wear one? Why? When?

On Thu, 7 Aug 200800, surfcolorado <> wrote:
>
> Ian Smith wrote:
> >
> > Have you tested it?
>
> No, but I’ll try later. you jump to a lot of assumptions about me.
>
> Ian Smith wrote:
> >
> > Now, you will presumably say that your no-test is much more
> > accurate than my test (most people do, for no coherent reason),
> > but why would your guess be more likely to reflect reality than my
> > approximate test?
>
> Why would you assume that I will jump to the conclusion that my
> hypothesis is more accurate than your test.

For the reason stated - because most people (the vast majority, in
fact) do. I can’t state my reason any clearer than I did before -
because most people do, for no coherent reason.

> So, If I am understand what you are saying. If I’m not please
> correct me. The reduction in torsional injury from not wearing a
> helmet outways the reduction in impact from wearing helmet.

Well, for a pure tangential impact (or nearly purely tangential) I
think there is no reduction in impact - the helmet may reduce the
acceleration of the normal component, but it will probably (or at
least, I believe it would probably) increase the rotational
acceleration. Given (for now) that rotational acceleration can be at
least as damaging as linear, we have ‘safety’ gear that potentially
causes as much harm as it protects. So yes, in approximate terms, the
average increase in torsional damage from wearing a helmet may
balance the average reduction in linear damage.

It is worth noting that (so far as I am aware) none of the helmet
test standards test anything other than normal impacts, so there are
no pressures on manufacturers to mitigate the torsional behaviour.

But note - I’m not saying that this is the cause of the observation
that increasing (sometimes dramatically) the proportion of people
wearing helmets has no detectable effect on head injury rates. The
limit of what I’m suggesting is that there are reasonably plausible
mechanisms by which helmets could exacerbate injury. It happens that
the injuries in question are of the most serious class, but that is
not directly relevant. The situations in which such increase in
severity could occur are not particularly unusual - in fact, an impact
with at least some tangential component is probably more likely than a
purely normal impact. I think it is cherent (though not necesarily
right) to conclude that such a mechanism could explain why injury
statistics do not support the claims made for cycling helmets.

That is, this mechanism is suggested only as a possible cause of the
population level statistics observations that helmets have negligible
effect on head injury rate. It doesn’t need to be the true mechanism,
for purposes of coherency of the argument, in only needs to be a
coherent explanation. Given at least one possible cause, the
statistical data cannot be discarded out-of-hand.

However, there are so many confounding factors it’s not funny. In
particular, much of the information comes from data before and
after compulsion is introduced, and the behaviour of a cyclist
compelled to wear a helmet may be different from that of a cyclist
who makes a free choice to do so.

IMO, the most likely other effects are risk compensation by the rider,
risk compensation by motorists (a link suggesting this has already
been posted) and changes in the number of cyclists. The first two of
these would probably apply to both compelled and ‘free choice’
wearers, but the last would only be relevant where compulsion is
introduced.

Where the ‘true’ mechanism is relevant is in trying to decide if the
statistics from bicycling populations can be extrapolated to
unicycling. If the cause is rider risk compensation, they almost
certainly can; if the cause is torsional impacts they possibly can,
but it’s not so clear-cut because of difference in exposure to motor
vehicles, difference in typical speeds and so on; if the cause is just
change in the number of bicyclists on the roads, I would expect they
probably cannot.

> Where I believe and I have observed. That a helmet can protect you
> from cracking your head like an egg on a rock or reduce the impact
> to your skull and brain by absorbing some of the impact.

There are several assumptions in that. In particular, heads don’t
crack like eggs. Heads are remarkably good at surviving impacts.

> both of the above can be life-changing, and that outways the
> increase in torsional injury from wearing a helmet, which I believe
> to be relatively low.

Why? Why do you believe torsional injuries are of low severity? (Or is
it that you belive they are of low likelihood)? Do you have any
evidence that tangential impacts are less common or less severe than
normal impacts? It would certainly be interesting to see such a
study, but I can’t imagine any remotely reliable methodology for it.

> Plus as an added bonus, you are protected from low lying branches
> and small crashes that would give you non life-changing injuries to
> the head.

I think this is the only thing that is universally accepted - helmets
do seem to do a good job of protecting against minor, embarrassing and
sometimes painful injuries.

When I used to wear a helmet religiously, it once took a blow from a
low-hanging garage door. Had I hit the door with my unprotected head,
I expect it would have split the scalp and been painful and quite
bloody - I might even have attended A&E, because it’s difficult to
patch up your own scalp (IME). Of course, had I not had a helmet on
with a brow and peak obscuring forwards upwards visibility, I might
have seen the door and not walked into it at all.

> personally it also allows me to ride with more confidence, knowing
> that it is unlikely that I will have a head injury at all.

As I said - risk compensation is potentially another explanation.
It may be the only one necessary.

regards, Ian SMith

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Re: Helmets: Do you wear one? Why? When?

On Thu, 7 Aug 2008, maestro8 <> wrote:
>
>
> Ian Smith wrote:
> > Almost certainly, but is a slightly greater chance of being a
> > vegetable an acceptable trade-off for a greater chance of reducing
> > non-life-changing injury like concussion or merely painful and/or
> > embarrassing injury like scalp cuts?
>
> This sounds like the same “argument” the anti-seatbelt crowd uses…
> the slight chance of being trapped in one’s burning automobile is
> enough to keep them from wearing their belts.

No, because it comes from the opposite direction -
The statistics show that helmets don’t reduce head injury rates. The
mechanism suggested is just one possible explanation why.

It would be like passing your seat-belt law, then finding out it made
no difference to the number of dead drivers and then asking why not.

> You seem to be producing all sorts of observational evidence to
> support your “argument”, but where is common sense?

Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen.

Common sense is notoriously bad at all sorts of things - at one time
it was common sense that a ship made of iron could not float. One
area where common sense is even worse than usual is in judging risk -
people are phenomenally bad at judging and comparing risk.

> Perhaps you lost that with a head injury on a helmetless ride some
> time long ago?

Ah yes. You believe your argument is so convincing that personal
insults strengthen it. Why does it always come to this?

> Whip out as much scientific jargon as you like, as many statistics as
> you like, you still can’t beat out common sense. With one swift stroke
> of Occam’s razor, your long-winded rants fall to pieces.

I don’t think you understand Occam’s razor.

However, in case you do - what is your simpler explanation for why
helmets don’t reduce the head injury rate amongst bicyclists?

regards, Ian SMith

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They do: Bicycle Helmet Statistics

I never wear helmet!

And if im gonna wear a helmet i use it when im un sure of the trick im doing

I think you got it, that would be a good explanation and I believe it to be the right one. That would still tell someone like me to wear a helmet. I want to go fast and ride at my limit. Therefore, I should protect my brain when I want to go fast and ride at my limit. I should, also, protect other body parts when I want to go faster and push my limit.

I think I should have used “outweighs.” Writing skills are okay, math/science is where it is at for me.

Unfortunately, 1+1=2, which is why there is a God. Non sequitur, my friend.

Statistics are numbers. If you can’t add numbers, perhaps you shouldn’t be looking at statistics.

Yet people still manage to hit their head whilst unicycling. Coincidence?

They’ve been kidnapped by the National Association of Orthodontists. Read a newspaper once in a while, eh?

…because helmets give one sense. Do you know what “compensate” means?

Right, because safety gear has never prevented any injuries. Ever.

This last statement settles the entire argument. I’m burning all my helmets right now.

I also ran the head hair verus helmet test. My helmet grabbed more on concrete than my hair, but my hair grabbed more on asphalt than more than my helmet.

Re: Helmets: Do you wear one? Why? When?

On Thu, 7 Aug 2008, MuniAddict <> wrote:
>
> Ian Smith wrote:
> >
> > what is your simpler explanation for why
> > helmets don’t reduce the head injury rate amongst bicyclists?
>
> They do: http://www.helmets.org/stats.htm

What in that lot supports your assertion?

regards, Ian SMith

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Re: Helmets: Do you wear one? Why? When?

On Thu, 7 Aug 2008, surfcolorado <> wrote:
> Ian Smith wrote:
> > surfcolorado wrote:
> >[color=darkred]
> > > personally it also allows me to ride with more confidence,
> > > knowing that it is unlikely that I will have a head injury at
> > > all.
> >
> > As I said - risk compensation is potentially another explanation.
> > It may be the only one necessary.
>
> I think you got it, that would be a good explanation and I believe
> it to be the right one. That would still tell someone like me to
> wear a helmet. I want to go fast and ride at my limit. Therefore,
> I should protect my brain when I want to go fast and ride at my
> limit. I should, also, protect other body parts when I want to go
> faster and push my limit.[/color]

At the balance point, though, that means that your helmet does not
reduce the likelihood of you suffering life-changing brain injury.
That is rather different from the claim generally being made (though I
recognise it may actually accurately reflect your decision making).

I think that what the above says is that you choose to wear a helmet
and then behave so that you (potentially) have the same chance of
life-changing injury, but you will enjoy yourself more (before the
injury) than had you not worn a helmet.

The risk would be that you inaccurately assess the risk modification
of the helmet - your ‘pushing the limit’ might not just cancel out the
benefit of the helmet, it might go further and mean you are more at
risk when you wear a helmet and feel confident than when you don’t.
Which is not to say your decision is unreasonable - it is at least a
coherent decision made (apparently) with your eyes open.

Good luck to you - hopefully (for everyone) it all remains merely an
academic topic.

regards, Ian SMith

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Statistics can be manipulated to “prove” anything you like, and correlation does not imply causation. Stop thumping on the numbers and give us something meaningful, why don’t you?

…evidence that correlation does not imply causation.

Are you saying you haven’t learned anything since age eighteen? Your behavior here gives me reason to believe so…

…and at one time people believed the Earth was flat. Unless we still live in those times, there’s no reason to introduce such facts into this discussion… unless you’re trying to bury me in irrelevance.

Ah, a generalization, what a great stance on which to form a conclusion.

I’ll play along. If people are bad at judging risk, then why not prepare for the worst? This almost sounds like an argument for helmets. If people are so bad at judging risk, why are there any people alive today? Coincidence?

But, no, you may well turn this into a false dilemma, and say that either we ride in full body armor, or we ride naked. So I’ll retract my offer to play along.

You’re assuming I believe in anything. For a troll, you’re quite naive.

And I don’t like red herrings. Enough about what you think… why not address the fact that you’re resorting to a rather complex web of loosely related statistics, studies and personal observations to support a nonsensical position on the topic of personal safety.

That’s a great example of a loaded question, Ian. Your demonstration of fallacy is impressive.

You haven’t paid us any regards. You’re just pissing in our pool.

Re: Helmets: Do you wear one? Why? When?

On Thu, 7 Aug, surfcolorado <> wrote:
>
> I also ran the head hair verus helmet test. My helmet grabbed more
> on concrete than my hair, but my hair grabbed more on asphalt than
> more than my helmet.

That’s interesting, though I’m not sure what conclusion it leads to.

You are also the first person I’ve ever spoken to who has actually
reported back as having done the test. Thanks.

regards, Ian SMith

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My guess is that the smooth concrete and smooth plastic have more surface area, thus more fiction area. The hair has nothing to grab onto.

Where as, the asphalt and hair are both rougher, allowing the asphalt to grab the hairs. Where the helmet skids along the high points on the asphalt and has less surface area.