Future of Unicycle Road Racing (here's what I think; what do you think?)

General
81

This is a cool thread - thanks Chuck for throwing this up and letting us bounce it around. Your attitude is a credit to unicycling, and you are perhaps too modest. You do have a very fast unicycle, but so also do a bunch of people with 36" gunis - you still have an inspiring amount of skill to control as well as push (two sides of the same coin really) that thing! It probably is healthy to not believe all the hype about yourself (whether it’s true or not), but from where I’m sitting you’re an amazing unicycle rider and an inspiration to many of us, to keep stretching this sport.

Anyway, my 2p worth as an ungeared ‘spinner’, who has muttered and resisted the guni thing for a while…

I haven’t got one (yet), but I want to belately acknowledge how awesome they are. :slight_smile: They don’t suddenly do something magical to your speed - a fast guni rider still has to be a fast unicyclist, full-stop (period). But they do make unicycle racing into a faster, bigger and cooler thing, and achievements on them should in no way be belittled. I’m sorry if I have done that before now.

For me, it has taken a long time to convince myself of that - I briefly tried Roger’s 36 Schlumpf a couple of years ago and just thought it wasn’t worth the hype (I could barely stay on). I tried several set-ups (29ers, 36er with 150, 125 etc) at RTL, and got more keen but not enough to feel I’d ever defect. Then I visited Florian Schlumpf’s workshop while touring recently and he kindly gave us a tour of the manufacturing process. I was amazed by the dedication to precision and quality he has (he uses a loupe to personally check and re-grind to perfection every one of the engagement positions), and how cool it is that this world-standard of technology which is defining a whole new chapter in our sport should come out of a couple of rooms at the back of the house of one guy in Switzerland. Then I tried some more gunis at Unicon, and eventually got to the point on Tony Melton’s 36 where I could feel confident to throw all my force at it, and those who saw the grin on my face at that point may know that I finally hit the tipping point - going that fast on one wheel is worth whatever sacrifices (cost, weight, crank slop, ‘simplicity’…). :smiley:

So I agree: anything human-powered and on one wheel is a ‘unicycle’ - and the big overall records are simply ‘unicycle’ records. Going after them on a guni is totally, 100%, fair game. As far as I know, there aren’t any 24" wheel limited records for the Hour, 100 mile or 24 Hour; and I don’t think we need to start up any ungeared catagory for those. I’d be happy to see them stay as completely unlimited.

Guinness have very few specific rules, and don’t define what a unicycle is or mention drafting. Like Ken I didn’t want to use any drafting so that we maintain a consistant standard, used in most general cycling records. Previous records which have been set ungeared will still be remembered and archived, as any previous records should be. But I can’t now see many people wanting to go after a limited ‘sub-section’ of a record that big. Of course that means that anyone wanting to be a holder of, say, the Hour record and who doesn’t use a guni had better get in there quick!

I guess I would still like to see my 24 Hour record broken on ungeared (just for old time’s sake…), as that would be very possible and cool, but even more I can’t wait to see what someone out there will do to it on a guni.

In terms of races (rather than ‘record only’ type events) like 10km and Marathon, I’d go with Ken’s three-way split above.

Also, an unlimited flying start one-mile record (or 1km) would be very cool, as a kind unicycle land-speed-record. Has that been done before?

We are in interesting times, and it’s pretty cool. I’m getting saving up. As Chuck says, “here we go, to the future!”.

Sam

82

Edit - oops, double post.

83

That’s a religion.
Right there.

84

After RTL and UNICON, I’ve really been wanting a gear because it would make my overall speed faster. During the RTL time trial, I was only passed by geared riders. (Beau, who was ungeared, caught up to me but he didn’t pass me). I think that, because I’m small, I can spin faster than a lot of other riders and that if I got a gear, even though my actual speed would be faster, I would be slower in comparison to other riders of my class. What I’m saying is that because I can spin fast, I’m a pretty fast ungeared rider but if I went geared I think that, compared to other geared riders, I would be slower because I’m not that strong of a rider. (EX: I was something like the 5th ungeared rider in the UNICON 10k, but if I was geared I think I would be closer to the 20th geared rider). I think it would be nice to preserve the ungeared category for those of us that would do better within our class than if we were geared.

85

I don’t agree with having separate classes just because some people are more suited to geared vs ungeared.

My point earlier was that it goes down to the core of how you define and categorise a unicycle. To me, the classic category or definition should be a simple machine that has an axle directly fixed to the cranks, and a geared category where you start adding gears of various forms.

So a Classic Unicycle vs a Geared Unicycle might be a better definition. I know one of the reasons I got into unicycling was because of it’s simplicity. Speed isn’t everything…or I could just as easily ride a bike instead! Many bicyclists are going back to singlespeeds and fixed wheels. To me a unicycle is the ultimate fixed, singlespeed machine. It is beautiful because it is simple. It gives you a connection to the road/terrain that you can’t get with a geared unicycle.

Don’t get me wrong, each type of unicycle has it’s place. I was one of the first in the world to get a GUni. And if I wanted to go as fast as was possible on one wheel, then I would pick a GUni. But I still much prefer to ride an Unguni/classic unicycle.

You might be surprised how much extra speed you get on a GUni. I’m a spinner too…but I think I’m about 3-5% faster on my 29’er Schlumpf than I am on the Coker. At Unicon 14, I didn’t have any trouble keeping up with Jan, and I know on that sort of course at RTL, he would be pulling away from me about a minute every 1/2hr or so if I was on a Coker.

86

Very good post Ken! :slight_smile:

I also like simplicity. There is too much mechanic and cleaning with a Mountain Bike. Unicycling: Fun - cheap - easy fixing!

87

Yes Ken you can’t describe it better!
There will be a new fight between different geared designs in some years for sure :slight_smile:

88

I think you just need to ride your schlumpf more :wink:

I used to think that I enjoyed the ungeared 36 more, but after more time spent on my schlumpf I can’t ever see myself choosing an ungeared uni over a geared uni for long distance now for most of the rides I do. There are obvious exceptions (long mountain climbs, cokerable muni trails, commuting in the city), but for the most part riding a geared unicycle feels SO much nicer.

The connection to the terrain applies for muni and offroad…riding an unguni offroad feels great and it does make you feel very connected to the terain, however on the road it is another story.

Gunis as you know aren’t just about speed but about comfort. A slower cadence is more comfortable and enjoyable than spinning incredibly fast on an ungeared 36.

89

Have to disagree with you there.

All I’m riding at the moment is my 29" Schlumpf. Because that’s all I have with me in Australia where I’m working. It takes a lot more concentration to ride than a Coker, and it’s nowhere nearly as nice to ride as my 29" Triton Unguni with 100mm cranks. That is buttery smooth on the road…it makes you want to ride it. It’s so lightweight and simple.

90

Cars are much less efficient than bikes, and riding around most towns a bike is faster. Between cities take the bus/train, on which you can probably take your unicycle (probably not a 36er, though) or fold-up bike. Everyone’s happy:)

91

I’m late to the party on this awesome thread due to my long post-Unicon stay in England. What was the original thread Chuck was referring to? I can’t figure it out. BTW Chuck, you are a wonderfully humble athlete. Don’t forget who was the fastest in all those races, it was you. You’re the man, regardless of what happens in the future, you’re opening doors to what may be the “next level.” Be proud, as I am proud to know you. Like KH you are personable, down-to-earth and easy to talk to. Don’t change.

Any decisions on such things should keep practicality in mind. The best reason to keep the 24" category, for now, is to allow those people to enter the event without having to lug another unicycle they may only use once. For the same reason I wasn’t in the Unicon 700c race (I didn’t bring mine).

Perhaps a larger question, one I’ll bring up in the next round of IUF Rules Committee, is what to do with track racing? Are we truly happy riding 24" wheels with cranks that many would consider slow on a 36"? But what to change to? So far, 700c doesn’t seem to be catching on. Anything that does happen will have to be gradual, as 24" racing is very traditional, and of course it’s still huge in Japan.

And they really weren’t! At Unicon XIII, the owner of the geared 36" I borrowed (Roger) let me use it because he was more comfortable spinning his ungeared one. RTL was perhaps a huge factor in driving people to train on geared unicycles.

IUF rules are made by the IUF Rules Committee, a group of interested volunteers who are willing to do long discussions to hash out updates to our existing set of rules. Currently we’re working on setting up the online structure for our online Committee system. Connie wants to have it up and running by Sept. 8. Anyone can join, though there is a limitation on # of members by country to keep it from being lopsided. I’m sure we will be discussing some of this…

You’re saying this while the Olympics is on? I just watched people playing badminton during prime TV time. What’s up with that? But the players were sweating so much (indoors!) that they had to periodically mop the floors so they wouldn’t slip. Imagine hopping for 26.2 miles. Would you be proud if you could even finish? My point is, all sports are somewhat pointless. On the one hand, we’re not going to cure cancer. On the other hand, we’re motivated to get very healthy, and at least we’re doing something non-destructive and staying out of gang wars. :slight_smile:

Or at least we shouldn’t force a new category. I’d recommend a new category, with how to work it, as an optional thing for future event hosts. More about that below.

This is something we should keep in mind as well, for the immediate future. There is a big price/class distinction as to who can afford to be geared. They either have to drop a substantial sum, be well sponsored, or make their own. In the future this difference will surely shrink, but for now it, and the limited availability of Schlumpfs, are important facts to consider.

Did you have a rule about clipless pedals? That means anybody could have used them. Same with a geared hub if, for example, somebody had shown up with one at the 10k race at Unicon 11, for instance. Whine all you want. The entry was legal, and anyone else could have invested in clipless, or designed & built a hub, as well.

Don’t we already? There’s 20", 24" and everything else. At least that was the case, but now we have gears and wheel sizes to mix things up. Besides, you don’t have to be that tall to ride a 46" wheel. Okay, how about a 42"? That’s the size I tried to get Coker interested in. It would still fit a lot of people. But I already have a 45.5" wheel, and I even raced it in the Unicon 11 10k. It’s heavy, but I could have been much faster with training. It still counts as unlimited. Would I rather have ridden a geared 29? Yup.

I like Chuck’s suggestion on adding a (optional) category. You have your Standard or 24" cagegory (which today means 24" with 125mm cranks), and the Unlimited category. You can optionally add an Ungeared Unlimited category. But I wouldn’t want to force it on organizers unless they expect to get at least three medalists in either category. That would have been easily accomplished at Unicon of course. The problem with doing this is that the medal results don’t reflect if an ungeared wheel was faster than the assumed-faster geared wheels. The times do, but it’s different from having them just go head to head.

The IUF still doesn’t have any official standards for record-setting/breaking. It would be nice if people wanted to revive that IUF World Records Committee. Was it Andy Cotter hosting that? I agree with much of what has been said about courses. Hour and 24-hour records probably need to be done on circuit courses to eliminate wind and elevation. One-time races, like a championships Marathon race, will have to do the best they can. These days it’s still hard enough to get a course at all, let alone tailor it for minimal hills, etc. As long as the distance is correct, broken records should be able to count unless there is an overall elevation loss of X meters. Something like that. Same for one-time 10k competitions.

I reject the idea that geared unis are “easier” to go fast on. Anyone who’s tried one knows they are not easy. However, anyone who has trained on both knows it’s easier to maintain a high speed longer on a geared uni than an ungeared one. At least that’s my experience. Beyond a certain ungeared speed, too much energy is going into furiously spinning your legs, while the geared version is more efficient. Depending on relative wheel sizes of course. I might be more comfortable on an ungeared 45" Coker wheel, but not on the hard-tire one in my garage for instance.

The ungeared uni is much easier to handle on uphills, where you just roll right into it. On a geared uni you have to decide whether to shift or to gut it out in the high gear. It’s still a lot of work. I would venture to say that a person who can spin fast is not necessarily great at pushing a geared uni fast. And vice-versa. Someone coming in from the world of bike racing would probably do much better on geared unicycles than spinning ungeared ones.

92

I’m late to the party on this awesome thread due to my long post-Unicon stay in England. What was the original thread Chuck was referring to? I can’t figure it out. BTW Chuck, you are a wonderfully humble athlete. Don’t forget who was the fastest in all those races, it was you. You’re the man, regardless of what happens in the future, you’re opening doors to what may be the “next level.” Be proud, as I am proud to know you. Like KH you are personable, down-to-earth and easy to talk to. Don’t change.

Any decisions on such things should keep practicality in mind. The best reason to keep the 24" category, for now, is to allow those people to enter the event without having to lug another unicycle they may only use once. For the same reason I wasn’t in the Unicon 700c race (I didn’t bring mine).

Perhaps a larger question, one I’ll bring up in the next round of IUF Rules Committee, is what to do with track racing? Are we truly happy riding 24" wheels with cranks that many would consider slow on a 36"? But what to change to? So far, 700c doesn’t seem to be catching on. Anything that does happen will have to be gradual, as 24" racing is very traditional, and of course it’s still huge in Japan.

And they really weren’t! At Unicon XIII, the owner of the geared 36" I borrowed (Roger) let me use it because he was more comfortable spinning his ungeared one. RTL was perhaps a huge factor in driving people to train on geared unicycles.

IUF rules are made by the IUF Rules Committee, a group of interested volunteers who are willing to do long discussions to hash out updates to our existing set of rules. Currently we’re working on setting up the online structure for our online Committee system. Connie wants to have it up and running by Sept. 8. Anyone can join, though there is a limitation on # of members by country to keep it from being lopsided. I’m sure we will be discussing some of this…

You’re saying this while the Olympics is on? I just watched people playing badminton during prime TV time. What’s up with that? But the players were sweating so much (indoors!) that they had to periodically mop the floors so they wouldn’t slip. Imagine hopping for 26.2 miles. Would you be proud if you could even finish? My point is, all sports are somewhat pointless. On the one hand, we’re not going to cure cancer. On the other hand, we’re motivated to get very healthy, and at least we’re doing something non-destructive and staying out of gang wars. :slight_smile:

Or at least we shouldn’t force a new category. I’d recommend a new category, with how to work it, as an optional thing for future event hosts. More about that below.

This is something we should keep in mind as well, for the immediate future. There is a big price/class distinction as to who can afford to be geared. They either have to drop a substantial sum, be well sponsored, or make their own. In the future this difference will surely shrink, but for now it, and the limited availability of Schlumpfs, are important facts to consider.

Did you have a rule about clipless pedals? That means anybody could have used them. Same with a geared hub if, for example, somebody had shown up with one at the 10k race at Unicon 11, for instance. Whine all you want. The entry was legal, and anyone else could have invested in clipless, or designed & built a hub, as well. In other words, the category is called “Unlimited” for a specific reason; to encourage development. I know this because it was my idea.

Don’t we already? There’s 20", 24" and everything else. At least that was the case, but now we have gears and wheel sizes to mix things up. Besides, you don’t have to be that tall to ride a 46" wheel. Okay, how about a 42"? That’s the size I tried to get Coker interested in. It would still fit a lot of people. But I already have a 45.5" wheel, and I even raced it in the Unicon 11 10k. It’s heavy, but I could have been much faster with training. It still counts as unlimited. Would I rather have ridden a geared 29? Yup.

I like Chuck’s suggestion on adding a (optional) category. You have your Standard or 24" cagegory (which today means 24" with 125mm cranks), and the Unlimited category. You can optionally add an Ungeared Unlimited category. But I wouldn’t want to force it on organizers unless they expect to get at least three medalists in either category. That would have been easily accomplished at Unicon of course. The problem with doing this is that the medal results don’t reflect if an ungeared wheel was faster than the assumed-faster geared wheels. The times do, but it’s different from having them just go head to head.

The IUF still doesn’t have any official standards for record-setting/breaking. It would be nice if people wanted to revive that IUF World Records Committee. Was it Andy Cotter hosting that? I agree with much of what has been said about courses. Hour and 24-hour records probably need to be done on circuit courses to eliminate wind and elevation. One-time races, like a championships Marathon race, will have to do the best they can. These days it’s still hard enough to get a course at all, let alone tailor it for minimal hills, etc. As long as the distance is correct, broken records should be able to count unless there is an overall elevation loss of X meters. Something like that. Same for one-time 10k competitions.

I reject the idea that geared unis are “easier” to go fast on. Anyone who’s tried one knows they are not easy. However, anyone who has trained on both knows it’s easier to maintain a high speed longer on a geared uni than an ungeared one. At least that’s my experience. Beyond a certain ungeared speed, too much energy is going into furiously spinning your legs, while the geared version is more efficient. Depending on relative wheel sizes of course. I might be more comfortable on an ungeared 45" Coker wheel, but not on the hard-tire one in my garage for instance.

The ungeared uni is much easier to handle on uphills, where you just roll right into it. On a geared uni you have to decide whether to shift or to gut it out in the high gear. It’s still a lot of work. I would venture to say that a person who can spin fast is not necessarily great at pushing a geared uni fast. And vice-versa. Someone coming in from the world of bike racing would probably do much better on geared unicycles than spinning ungeared ones.

Okay that’s enough. If I write as much as Chuck did someone’s going to go blind in this thread… :stuck_out_tongue:

93

I think you are missing the point I was trying to make John. A 45.5" wheel might be a similar size gear to a 29" Schlumpf in high gear, but it is still a classic, simple, ungeared unicycle. Whatever wheel size you use, I think the main distinction is whether it is a geared or ungeared unicycle. I don’t think they should be lumped with together even if they are essentially the same virtual size gear.

And I have already asked Connie about getting the IUF WR committee running again. Haven’t heard back yet. I think the last IUF committee got too tied up in minutiae before it disbanded.

94

I think you can start it off with two classes; 24" and unlimited. 29er doesn’t really make any sense; few people will want to bring a 29er specifically for a few track races, while lots of people will have 24" for other events.

Ungeared Cokers might even be faster than GUnis on some of the short races. It would be interesting to see.

95

What other events? Basketball is the obvious one, but most riders use 20" for hockey. Can’t think of anything else I’d bring a 24" for, and MUni doesn’t count as most of our 24" MUnis don’t actually have 24" wheels (too big).

So I’m thinking in terms of track racing, on an athletics track. The reason I pursued the 700c category is that it’s a common wheel size (in the market, not necessarily for unicycles), but it should still work on the track. 8 lanes of Cokers will not work well on the track. Try it. If you practice enough, staying in lane at top speed should get pretty easy. But it isn’t without all that practice. Since most people don’t traditionally practice for track, it would be ugly. I think 36" and geared unicycles are too fast for a safe experience in a track environment.

But the track is so handy! They’re easy to rent for whole days, and they often come with nearby gyms, or vice-versa. In contrast, setting up road racing courses is very difficult and can be expensive, paying for police overtime and such. So what I’m looking for is a direction to take track racing. Preferrably into something that people actually do outside of unicycle conventions. We used to all ride fast on 24" unicycles because that’s what we had. But that hasn’t been true for many years now. Except if you live in Japan, or a select few other places where it’s still huge, track racing is pretty far outside the rest of peoples’ everyday unicycling activities.

I’d like to avoid just going unlimited with 24" wheels because, unless you play basketball, it’s still an outdated size. It’s a wheel size for kids’ bikes. Relatively few tires to choose from and even fewer rims. And notice the people who do real serious track racing use skinny 26" rims/tires (that are legal because they’re small enough). These aren’t good for anything but racing; they’d be terrible for basketball or hockey.

96

How about track races for big wheels without laning - an 8 lane track is wide enough to race cokers on, at road races we manage. Although it does mean the start might be carnage for shorter races, but for anything longer than about 500m, it’d be fine.

The 26" skinny ‘24"’ wheels are stupid - it’s just people exploiting a silly loophole in the rules - if we have 24" racing, the rules should state the rim diameter to be that of a 24" rim, and a maximum tyre diameter. That way you don’t need to get a silly specialised unicycle to race competitively, and no one is doing silly stuff to cheat on the rules.

The other possible thing to do would be to go unlimited on the track. With disqualification for going out of lane people would have to either ride a smaller wheel, or practice a lot on the coker.

Joe

97

I think you really only have two choices:

  1. Go unlimited on the track.
  2. Allow interest in track racing to dwindle to nothing.

Basically, as Cokers and geared unis come to dominate speed events, there’s really not much reason to race 24" unis anymore. You know there are still 20km and 50km walking races in the Olympics? Really. Nobody watches them because they’re boring, and the top athletes compete in other sports. I don’t know if Chuck and Ken and the other top racers competed in 24" races at Unicon; it looks like not. Why should they? 24" racing is silly. Why would you spend your time mastering a geared 36er and then race on a clown unicycle? Or even a 29er.

People who ride Cokers or geared unicycles do train on those configurations, because that’s their normal configuration for road riding. It’s riding an ungeared small wheel that they don’t train for.

98

Lots of people do train for “standard unicycle” (24") races. Certainly Japanese and Germans, but others too (including myself). I like the heritage aspect of it, even though I ride my 24" only to practice for those races.

If you would have seen the expert finals 100 m at Unicon14, you wouldn’t call this size clown’s unicycles. Seisuke Kobayashi won in 12.69 seconds, and the whole stadium went “WHOA” when he squeezed out his end sprint. Truly remarkable.

99

Sure, it’s remarkable for what it is. It’s still boring compared to big wheel racing, both to do and to watch.

100

Wow, what a great thread. As a novice GUni rider I don’t know how much I can contribute. I have really enjoyed the rides I’ve done on it so far (all 3 of them) and plan on many more. It is definitely not EASY - I look at it as a totally new skill I am learning.

I think there should be the current two categories in racing: limited (24"/5" crank) and unlimited. I don’t buy that there is a difference between geared and ungeared other than effective wheel size. Of course there are differences: cost, weight and slop - all of which favor ungeared. None of those matter. It’s an UNLIMITED unicycle. It has one wheel and it’s human powered. As Sam said, you better get to work quick if you want to win anything ungeared on a 36" wheel these days. It is no longer 2006. You are going to have to get a larger wheel if you don’t want to gear up.

I don’t think unicycling is silly. As Kris said, all sports you do for their own sakes are equally silly. I don’t feel silly unicycling, or playing darts, or racing mountain bikes or … anything else.

I love the idea of keeping historical track of the records with equipment notes. I like how Sam wants to see his record beaten ungeared but admits it’s just for “old times sake” and really what he wants is to see how far someone can ride on a unicycle in 24 hours (and then presumably to get a Guni and go out and reclaim the record with something well over 500km!)

We did a ride 2 day ago that was really fun: me on a Guni, Beau and Chuck and others on fixed 36ers - Chuck was riding my Hunter36. Surprise surprise, he’s still fast as hell. At one point I had the Guni going pretty fast (certainly over 30kph) - I thought that was cool, but Beau cruised by on his fixed 36er and put me in my place.

Chuck, THANKS for your posts in this thread. As John says, you are the man!

—Nathan