I don’t believe metaphors are defined structurely, i.e. limited to a particular grammatical construction. A metaphor is when one thing, situation, or event is used to represent another.
I’m pretty sure that both examples GILD presented are similes. “Like” or “as” are both used in similes.
Hey now !
My mom’s name is Nancy, and I’m a boy.
But … not Gay
I am soooooo… offended !!!
But sometimes you just need to “insult” someone. Didn’t you ever have a “need” to call a friend an idiot or stupid? How about a moron? But does that fit your criteria? How about incorrectly describing someone? (such as calling a smart person a moron)
Ah, I think I’ve hit upon something. Find UniBrier’s post earlier in this thread. It says that words like moron and feeble-minded and idiot are no longer used to describe the less-able-minded. Nobody complains that all the idiots of the world are offended when someone uses the word idiot. Same with moron, I believe.
Henceforth, even though Billy has not fully convinced me (nor did he wish to try), if I desire to insult a perfectly-able-minded person, I will call them a moron. Nobody is offended except that person (and not even them, because they will understand that I am only referring to the stupid thing they have just done).
Note: I would never use these words to a child or a less-able-minded person (it would scar them). Nor to a stranger or someone I didn’t like (they would beat me up). Nor to a family member (well, maybe my brother). Only to able-minded friends who understand how I truly feel about them. Those are the people you can “insult”.
Billy wanted to take away my ability to mock insult because there would be a real insult to others. He should have given me substitute words right away. It would have saved a lot of time.
Dave,
With respect to the word “retard”. Suppose you were on a subway platform talking to a friend and that friend made some inane comment. And you blurted out “you retard!”. Now suppose you turned around and came face to face with a kid with downs syndrome and his mom looking straight at you, clearly having heard what you said.
Would you blush? Would you say, oh, I didn’t mean it that way and believe yourself forgiven?
Using that word or any other pejorative here is effectively putting yourself in the same position.
I think that is the key. The context and with whom you are with makes all the difference.
Aristotle, Socorites…MORONS
Unfortunately this line of reasoning isn’t enough either, because it leads inevitably to a verbal minefield, where the only path through is the Official List of Approved Words, the use of which one is not allowed to complain against. Of course, I tend to walk in the middle of that path, but often it is to the detriment of me and those around me. Drowning in niceness, able to live only vicariously through those who are bold enough to break the rules.
It is not inevitable that the mom’s look should be condemning and fatally painful, and to me, it is not to her credit if the source is within her.
We should be aware, and sensitive, but also resilient, patient, understanding. Not afraid, tentative, guilty.
I don’t think I would use that word loudly in a crowded place. Your point is well taken, but will you at the same time give me some credit?
Here’s what I’ve been having trouble with all along. You and Billy are basically saying this (and this is the ONLY way to accurately phrase what you are saying)…
“Don’t say the word retard because you will offend the retards.”
Personally, I find that statement quite distasteful. The learning disabled, the less-able-minded, take your pick of PC phrases, are not retards! That’s a very cruel way of describing them. Personally, I do NOT describe them as being retards or retarded. Hence when I say that word to an able-minded person, YOU are the only person making the connection to the learning disabled.
Again, when I say the word “retard”, it is YOU who makes the connection to the learning disabled, etc. Not me. Do you also object to the word “moron”? If you are offended by that word, then you must think of the learning disabled as morons. How reprehensible of you. Again, YOU made that connection, not me. You chose to make a connection and then to be offended by what your own mind manufactured.
I am agreeing not to use the word retard. But you haven’t convinced me to become offended when I hear someone use that word.
I thought I hit upon something earlier. Since “moron” does not refer to a group of people, I thought it was safe to use that word. Same with “idiot”. And certainly you do not object to “stupid”? Right now, we are on that crowded subway. It has pulled out of the station and you just told me you left your bag on the platform… ha ha, you moron! You idiot! LOL!
Please tell me the status of these words…
I’ve just called you a moron on the subway. That mother is staring at me. Is she offended? Only if she thinks her child is a “moron”. (and that was my line of thinking with regard to “retard”, but I’m giving in on that one…)
This is not just a word. This is a slippery slope.
Dave,
I agree with you to a point, but find your rhetoric somewhat more compelling than your message. In the end those who are bold enough to break the rules and have some affect, do so for a reason. Think of the Thomas Paine quote Danny Colyer (sometime RSU poster) uses as his sig. “Those who dare not offend, can not be honest.” Was Paine talking about silly banter and throwing around the word “retard”? I don’t believe so. He was talking about serious business affecting real lives.
Yes, we should not have to be afraid, tentative, and guilty. But if you’re going to give offense and not have reason to feel guilty about it, you have should have a damn good reason for doing so.
I also think that if someone is going to throw around the word “retard” or any other such word, then he or she should have the self respect to simply say that they don’t care if causes offense. That, rather than trying to defend it with convoluted arguments about it’s meaning changing, etc. I’ve had a number of people use the phrase “to jew down” and then go on ad nauseaum about how it’s not a slur. It just don’t work.
Exactly, Dave. It’s a slippery slope. I don’t care about the word retard. I haven’t used the word in decades. But I care about the principle at stake. Which is, where do we draw the line? If this word has to go, then it has to go. But if we start eliminating words indiscriminately, we are in trouble. Life will become ungood.
If someone kills someone, their state-of-mind is important. Was it accidental? Pre-meditated? Spontaneous? Self-defense? Perceived self-defense?
YES the perceptions of the listener matter. But MY intentions as the speaker should ALSO matter (just like the killer). That lady on the subway should realize that I wasn’t being cruel. The only cruelty was invented in her own mind. She didn’t want to be reminded of an unpleasant fact and she’s blaming me. But it’s not my problem (remember, I’ve agreed to use the word “moron” instead of “retard” – if she doesn’t like that word then she can stop listening in on other people’s conversations).
Raphael – your post just came in after I finished the above. “Jew down” is offensive. If someone tried to argue with me that it wasn’t offensive, I would give an incredulous little laugh and not know how to proceed. How could one think that it wasn’t offensive!!!
But as it turns out, I don’t find the word retard offensive. So, I can understand how you and Billy feel now. But “Jew down” invokes an unfair stereotype of Jewish people. Calling someone a retard insults the person to which it was directed and it makes reference to the existence of the less-able-minded (assuming you think of them as retards). Very different (compare: “less-able-minded people exist” vs. “Jews are stingy”). But I’m giving up. You guys have won that battle.
Edit: clarify a point (a change from “you” to “one”).
Dave,
I do not need to tell you that status of any word. You can make those determinations for yourself.
Here is the Merriam-Webster definition of retard:
2 /'rE-"tärd/ often offensive : a retarded person; also : a person held to resemble a retarded person in behavior
Maybe we’re both wrong on this.
Good. It seems that I’m using the word correctly. I absolutely NEVER refer to a less-able-minded person as a retard. I only use the word in the second sense (the “also” part of the definition). Unfortunately, the dictionary does not specify who is offended.
I grow so weary of this. You win. But first would you care to comment on the words moron, idiot, and stupid? Isn’t “retarded” so archaic and politically incorrect that it falls into the same category as “moron” and “idiot”? Or am I ahead of my time? UniBrier quoted a source that said “in its own time, moron was a euphemism for the pejorative word idiot”. Currently, neither of those words are EVER used to refer to the population of learning disabled (less-able-minded, etc.). To me, “retarded” is similarly outdated and archaic (only you and Billy seem to use it). Thus when I use it to insult ONE able-minded person, I am not referring to anyone else and have not offended anyone else. And this is where I came in to the discussion, isn’t it? On this point I’ve been stuck all along. And nobody has been able to help me. I’m going to leave this discussion approximately where we came in… Bush is a moron!
Since you conceded defeat without first requesting terms, no, I’ll not comment on those words. For victory, no matter how shallow, is wearisome, too.
I will gladly, however, take them up with you in the event we both wind up at Grant’s Tomb sometime simultaneously in the not too distant future.
Darn.
I look forward to it!
Edit: oops, I’m not myself right now.
Back to basics
Time to get back to basics. Maybe I’m conservative, maybe I’m old fashioned, but when I was a kid, my parents (and any adult) taught that it’s WRONG to call people names. I hope they still teach that. I still do.
I don’t hear any name-calling at our NYC Unatics meetings, not even from U-Turn, and I don’t think it would go over very well.
Beyond that, there are a variety of words that are more offensive than names like “doo-doo head.” Some of these are derogatory words used against persons because of their religion, national origin, ethnicity, orientation, etc., words that have been used by majorities to keep minorities in their place, Irish, Jews, Black, and on and on over the years.
Words like “gimp” and “spaz” put down someone because of their physical disability or lack of coordination. Is anyone going to tell me that’s the RIGHT thing to do? Put someone down?
And remember, are you going to teach your 5 year old kid that it’s OK to use these names? Are you going to let them join the Aryan Brotherhood or White Supremacists or other such groups (the Mental Supremacists?) who endorse such name calling?
It’s not that hard. If you have been taught properly, it’s not hard at all.
Billy
I wouldn’t apologize. The kid has trisomy-21, not a case of mental retardation (well, retardation is an effect, so the kid does have a case of it, but more importantly the context speaks for itself. it wasn’t an attack on all mentally disabled, it was an exaggerated comparison between your friend the idiot and a mass of handicapped people.
I don’t see the problem.
Now, if you walked up to a kid with Down Syndrome and said “What the hell is the matter with you, retard?” That’d be bad.
Leave my parents out of this!
You haven’t really entered the discussion. To you, this is black-and-white. Cut-and-dry. Common sense.
I’ll say it again. Of course I would never put down someone with Down Syndrome or with a physical disability or anything else like that. Of course not.
But you threaten to take away my ability to call you a spaz when you fall off your unicycle. You threaten to take away my ability to call a friend a moron or an idiot when they do something moronic or idiotic. This is a much larger issue.
Will you give your approval or disapproval of these words please? This is my third request for dialog.
Specifically, please tell me whether it’s okay to exclaim this loudly on that same crowded subway… “I’m such a moron!” (perhaps at a sudden realization of having done something stupid). That mother is looking at me now. Please comment.
Okay, I’m out of this discussion again. Until my next post.
dave
i can’t quite figure out why u keep asking this
i think it’s pretty obvious that nobody is about to jump up and say:" ‘xyz’ is fine but ‘qpr’ must go!"
because that’s not the way it works
and u can’t force ‘us’ to become the prescriptive demons the anti-PC brigade seems intent on making us out to be
if u have to ask for rules, u haven’t understood the concept, and since i’m pretty sure u do understand the concept involved here, your repeated requests for ‘rules’ strikes me as rather disingenious - a side of u i’ve never seen before. time for a third posting identity perhaps? 
i like billy’s ‘no name calling’ post
i think that really cuts to the heart of the issue better than my ‘dont use a description of someone else as an insult’ (which i still think has some legs and if i have the time at some stage , might write a longer defence of)
and while speaking of my favourite hemlock drinker, i like this
thread
I’m quite enjoying this discussion.
You’re ahead of your time.
In a sense you are correct. The very few times I hear the word from my friends or my Jr Hi daughter’s classmates it is used in a self-effacing way, i.e. “I am so retarded”. Knowing these people I know they mean no disrespect. They could have said “I’m an idiot” and meant the same thing.
But I still don’t think use of the word should be encouraged. There is still a huge connection between the word and those with mental retardation. Especially when used as an insult. The use of the word that solicited this thread was that Bush was a Retard. The first response was:
I think he hit the nail on the head.
Many have seen the photo of the Down Syndrome boy running with the caption: Arguing on the internet is like running in the Special Olympics, even if you win you’re still retarded. I’m sure everyone in this discussion will agree that is very offensive. My point here is that I think this goes towards showing there still is an assocation.
Words can become archaic but still shouldn’t be used lightly. Down Syndrome used to be called Mongolism and people of my parent’s generation (and even in my youth) would use Mongoloid without thinking twice. Fortunately that word has fallen completely out of use. Shortly after my son was born my aunt used the “M” word, probably because that was what she was used to, she meant no disrespect. We could also tell she immediately realized that wasn’t the word to use anymore so we all let it go and it has never been heard again. That word is archaic but still has so much association that it will never become part of “innocent” conversation.
Presonally, I’m not offended if someone uses stupid, idiot, or moron in a self-efacing way or as a taunt between friends. But those same words probably shouldn’t be used as a direct insult. There are better ways to insult.
Again I have taken so long to compose that other posts have been made. Time to stop and get back to my short posts.
thanx for reminding me
i finished my post above with this gnawing feeling that there was something i wanted to add, but couldn’t remember what it was
insulting using words like that is really ‘beginner’ stuff
it’s like swearing, an indication of a limited vocabulary
if u’ve ever heard george peck ‘swear’ at himself in ‘Rough Terrain Unicycling’, u’ll have an idea of how creative one can actually get
I was going to stay out of the ‘heart’ of this discussion.
To me, when I hear those ‘words’ or words similar used to belittle someone is childish.
(indicating a lack of maturity)
IMO - A person calling someone names is the direct result of the lack of ablitiy (of that person) to express his/her thoughts in an effective manner.
when I hear words used in this context …
I immediately think the persons using such words are uneducated, and lack the social skills to ‘get along’ with others.
That is all… flame me if you wish. I will not respond.
Let this thread die.