Atheist Unicyclists

Let me explain how this works:

Lets say that someone has a belief that there is a unicorn in orbit around a planet in another galaxy. You say “That is a load of bull. Prove it.”

They say: “Prove I’m wrong.”

Now there is no way you can ever do that given the infinate number of galaxies and planets in the universe. You say: “I can’t prove that.” They win.

There are some things that can’t be proven or disproven, because they exist soley on the notion that they could exist.

The same thing can be applied the other way:

You say: “There is no god”

They say: “Prove it!” You can’t can you? Just in the same way that they cannot prove that he exists, you cannot prove that he doesn’t.

Seeing as there is absolutely no way to prove that either side is right, we each follow our own best judgements to determine which side we are on, and thus we have these huge gigantomungous arguements about who is right.

Yes, a square circle cannot exist because we can prove that. You CANNOT prove that God does not exist, and thus you believing that god doesn’t exist is faith. You believe in something you cannot prove, than you have to have faith.

You can disprove some Gods, you can disprove some definitions of God, but the general christian God is so mumbo-jumboey that you cannot disprove him/it. Trust me, I’ve tried for a long time.

The general theodic definition of a christain God, btw, generally agreeded on by theodicians and theologians is a God bound by logic. Infact, God and “logic” are often thought of as being identical and inseperable. (logic is perfect and God is perfect, etc) Therefor, God CANNOT do things that defy logic. Therefor, God CAN make a rock that he can’t lift. God CAN’T make a circle be a square, etc. Proving or disproving this version of God is very hard. It all works out to metaphysics at some point (can a being outside of time affect a timeline) etc.

For thousands of years people have been trying to prove and disprove this God, and they’ve failed. Therefor believing that God cannot exist requires faith. You can say that it’s highly improbable, and that the odds against it are a gazillion to one, but you can’t say it’s impossible.

You might like this book. :smiley:

People really analyze the shit out of things, don’t they?

who do you aetheists cry to when you bust a nut?

I do.

Why do you Christians cry when I burn churches?

we cry to the nut gods

i don’t want to speak for all atheists, but I have DISbelief in God, I just can’t be bothered with the idea. It seems to be a very Christian idea tht there are only 2 possible sides to everything. As Bush woudl say “you either fer us or yer aginst us” But it’s not that simple.

Oh yes, I’ve been told that before.

Imagine that a scientist came up with a theory that sounded pretty unbelievable, had lots of holes in it, and basically had no evidence to support the theory. If that scientist said “prove I’m wrong”, the other scientists would laugh at him and his theory. He would be considered a quack or a charlatan or a goofball or whatever (what’s a quack scientist called?).

And regarding your second part, that is why I am always very careful NEVER to assert that “God does not exist”. I simply do not believe the theory of God. Practically speaking, we arrive at the same place (no God). But a lack of belief requires no defense. A positive belief (God does not or cannot exist) does require defense.

If you present sufficient evidence for your orbiting unicorn, then of course I’ll believe it. But until then, I reject your theory.

“An orbiting unicorn exists” is not a true statement to me. Prior to me becoming convinced of your theory, it is simply not a true statement. That’s different from me saying that “an orbiting unicorn does NOT exist”.

God is YOUR theory. You have to explain the theory and then give me reasons to believe. The onus is 100% on you.

Yes, that’s what Billy accused me of doing.

I came across this the other day. It seems relevant.

Dave,

Incorrect. Like Atheist, Christian says only one thing about a person. See below:
Christian (krschn)
adj.

  1. Professing belief in Jesus as Christ or following the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus.
  2. Relating to or derived from Jesus or Jesus’s teachings.
  3. Manifesting the qualities or spirit of Jesus; Christlike.
  4. Relating to or characteristic of Christianity or its adherents.
  5. Showing a loving concern for others; humane.
    n.
  6. One who professes belief in Jesus as Christ or follows the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus.
  7. One who lives according to the teachings of Jesus.

Atheist (athee-ist)
adj.

  1. Professing belief in no God.
  2. Showing no loving concern for others; inhumane.
    n.
  3. One who professes belief in no God.

Billy

The problem here, as I see it, is using the word faith out of context. The concept of faith simply does not exist in atheism. You are looking at athiesm through the paradigm of theism.

If you were to show an athiest god, he would not refute it since the athiest view uses logic and reason instead of faith. Example: If one did not believe elephants existed and you presented him an elephant, he would have to acknowledge that elephants existed. (please note: I mean “show god” in the literal sense as in “athiest this is god, god this is athiest”)

However, if a person has faith in a god, you cannot show him “no god”. (even if you could, he would still have “faith”).

I think this is sort of funny.

You cannot have satan without god. For satan to exist, you must accept god. True satanism doesn’t exist except for death rock bands. (and in a comical sense in that).

LaVay satanism, to me, seems like a rejection of christianity, and the name is used simply as a means of distancing itself from religion. Which is ironic since it has the opposite effect.

This is another example of looking at athiesm through the paradigm of theism. With athiesm , there cannot be a higher power. The moment you have a higher power, athiesm is no longer present.

That is an ethnocentric view: A christian COULD say: I do not need faith in God any more than I need faith in gravity. My every step confirms the existence. It’s not faith; it’s FACT. Who needs faith in gravity?

Everytime I show GOD to Atheists, they say: That’s not the GOD I don’t believe in.

Billy

That’s pretty much the response I expected to get, and it simply underlines the differences between thiests and athiests, and why these discussions always end the same way…except, what does ethnicity have to do with it?

Christianity is a belief system. But according to your dictionary definition, I must be a Christian, because I have a loving concern for others. And you doctored the definition of atheism, didn’t you?

Thank you. I’m glad you are here. (this is in response to everything you’ve said, not just the above)

Good luck trying to get through to Billy. He is obviously* crying out for our help. He wants to trust in logic and reason, but he has been taught “faith”, which is incompatible with reason. Billy is my friend. Can you help me help him? :slight_smile:

    • not

Oh dear.
Not believing in God can only be explained by faith in there not being a God?

The idea of a God(s) is an idea about the fundamental nature of the universe. It is a very important idea indeed. Gosh, if I’m wrong, then I’m gonna be in a lot of trouble in a few years when I die.

An idea about the fundamental nature of the universe, something that describes the universe and helps us to see how it works. That’s a theory… but a theory is no good if:
(1) It cannot possibly be verified. (Proven to be true.)
(2) It cannot possibly be falsified. (Proven to be false.)
(3) It cannot be used to make better than random predicitions.

The God theory in its standard form cannot be verified or falsified, and even its keenest proponents don’t suggest they can use it to make better than random predicitions. Will the child die? Will God save it or take it to his bosom? God works in mysterious ways, etc.

So the God theory is less useful than the orbiting unicorn theory, because at least in prnciple, it would be possible to verify that. You’d only need to stumble across one star with an orbiting unicorn and you’d be home and dry.

It is possible that the first man to use a flint tool was called Gregory. There is nothing inherently implausible about this, but it is not susceptible to proof or disproof, and can’t help us to make better than random predictions about future events in palaoarchaeology. Therefore, no one investigates it further.

As for Darwin. Darwin was another fallible human being, a scientist. He had a great insight, and proposed a theory of evolution. Like all scientific hypotheses, it was susceptible to testing. Over the years, the basic idea has held good, but it has been refined as we’ve learned more.

Lamarck had another theory - the theory that acquired characteristics could be transmitted down the generations. Right or wrong, his theory was susceptible to proof, disproof, or refinement.

Of course, God(s) could have designed a world in which a mechanism like evolution played its part, and most people who call themselves Christian accept the idea of evolution. Only a minority of people profess to believe in literal 6 day creationism, and a fair number of people subscribe to some version of intelligent design.

As a purely logical challenge, it is harder to dismiss the idea of numerous gods with limited powers (as per the Greeks, Romans, Vikings, etc.) than it is to dismiss the idea of an omnipresent omnipotent etc. single God.

Those who choose to believe often derive solace, or strength from their faith. I know some very good Christians, Muslims, Hindus, and at least one pagan. Other people I have known have had their lives ruined by a religious upbringing, sinking into depression, guilt, and feelings of worthlessness.

Those who choose not to believe are sometimes stronger and happier for their independence; others sink into depression at the futility of it all.

The debate is unwinnable, because a person who strives to live by faith will only concede when they lose their faith, and a person who strives to live by the dictates of reason will only concede when they lose the will to do so.

Let’s not fall out about it.

Anyone else out there ride a unicycle? It’s great fun.

wow that’s an offensive definition. It was obviously written by a theist. What a horrible jump of logic. But some people jsut can’t understand how someone would try to be a good person without a God to tell them to.