MUCH better!
Cathy
I’m inclined towards the logical positivist answer that if the answer to a question is susceptible neither to proof nor disproof, then it is a nonsensical question. A difference that makes no difference is no difference. If the difference makes some difference, then that is an opportunity for proof or disproof.
However, I recognise that the logical positivist position is not without its own limitations.
The widespread belief in god is a real and demonstrable phenomenon, and has real effects on our day to day lives. In a sense, therefore, God exists as an idea that has real power, for good or ill. Faith is a reality, even if it is faith in something that is unreal.
I disagree. Although it sounds as though you’ve put a lot more thought, effort and time into this then I have. Correct me if I’m wrong. I’ve always thought that satanism is the minipulation of the powers of spirits and earthen things in the quest to have more power then the next person.
The rest of your explanations seem spot on to me. Thanks!
unidad, we seem to be talking here specifically about LaVayen satanism, which has little or no occult basis, as far as i can see it is based on human psychology, powers of earthen spirits doesn’t come in to it. It teaches that you are your own god, that there is nothing above you that is worthy of worship.
Dk, im not sure what rituals you are referring to, most of the ‘satanic rituals’ relate to branches of satanism that we’re not discussing at the moment, namely those praticed by teen dabblers in the ‘dark arts’ or groups of voodoo-esque worshipers who seek control or power via occult means. As far as i understand it, to subscribe to the Church of Satanism is to alter the way one lives their everyday life, it’s in everything you do, there is no need for a house of worship or a doctrine of laws. Most of all i think, it praises intelligent thought rather than blind obedience, something which raises my opinion of it a great deal.
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Atheists do not have a belief. We simply have a lack of belief. It’s like not believing in the Easter Bunny. It says nothing else about the person. It’s not a belief system. It’s lack of one single belief.
Darwinism is usually used incorrectly instead of “evolution” or darwinist for evolutionist. Evolution/darwinism makes absolutely no claims upon the existance of God. Darwinism would be, I suppose, a follower of Darwin. Since most evolutionist have moved past Darwin (he got some things wrong) to better perfect the theory calling evolutionists “darwinists” is completely wrong. Also, you can agree with evolution and believe in God, they are not mutually exclusive. Atheism has nothing to do with evolution or darwinism and vice versa.
As for having studied quantum physics and relativity and not believing in God… that’s silly. You argument here is simply “Holy cow it’s super complicated and we can’t fully explain is yet so there must be a higher power.” That’s pretty much how religion was invented, when people were trying to explain lightening. Something being unexplainable by humans does not prove the existence of a deity.
Furthermore, Buddism doesn’t have a “god” they way you said it, and evolutionist doesn’t belong in the same list as “christian, muslim, or buddist” because it’s not a religion.
We do agree, however, the hard atheism (the belief that God can not exist) does require faith. Many people that claim to be atheists are actually agnostic who simply lean to atheism but admit that God cannot be proved or disproved. It’s possible to not believe in God and at the same time not believe that there is no God. One can simply not believe anything for lack of enough information.
I’m not going to fully express my views right here, right now, but I will say that I am Agnostic.
Expect a full argument in the future.
Dave, Thank you for speaking for all the Atheists. Might you say that Atheists, like the Satanists, [In the words of kington99]: Most of all i think, it praises intelligent thought rather than blind obedience, something which raises my opinion of it a great deal.
Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, etc, also praise intelligent thought rather than blind obedience, except the Fundamentalists of any group.
But being a Christian says nothing else about the person either. You find Christians in jails, in politics, even in unicycle clubs 
Billy
Thank you Seager!!! [I hope Dave sees this…]
Billy
I disagree. I am an aetheist and I have a belief system. I don’t believe in god but at the moment I do believe that reality is something socially negotiated rather than being something that actually exists (at least to a point). I don’t believe that I am god or that any other gods exist but I do have a belief system, mostly founded on moral principles such as it is wrong to kill others and that when you die your whole universe dies with you but in another way you live on in the minds and behaviours of those that you have influenced along the way.
Cathy
How nice to read of someone who is open minded and self-aware enough to acknowledge that their beliefs may change. That is an important difference between faith and reason.
Your provisional conclusion that your whole universe will die with you, but that you will live on in the memories of those whom you have affected is interesting and, I think, a useful way of trying to understand your own place in the world. It is also a useful model to bear in mind when you try to understand those who see the world very differently.
Of course there is an external world of sorts. We can only know it second hand through our senses and the interpretations we place on them. Even if the “outside world” is just an illusion, the fact that we conceive it shows that “otherness” exists, that there is something “other than” the part of our mind that we conceive as a discrete entity, and there is therefore something that we can reasonably describe as “external”, relative to that part of the mind.
Your emphasis on the social foundation of your “universe” is where I might part company from you. Is your suggestion that a person raised in isolation from other human beings, and unaware of their existence, would have no universe? I think the foundation of our private universes is based on our interpretations of our perceptions, and that social interraction is only one (very important) source of those perceptions.
Perhaps I interpret social interaction more broadly than you do. I can’t see how it would be possible for a child to be raised in total isolation. Somebody or something would have to do the raising. This in iteslf is a social accomplishment. Human babies are designed to blag parents into raising them. (Please interpret ‘design’ in the loosest way possible). I believe that that child would interact with whatever was available, it doesn’t necessarily have to be human beings. We are designed (I believe) to make meaning out of the world via social interaction (with whatever is around).
Cathy
Am I the only one who finds it the least bit amusing that a theological discussion like this is on a unicycling forum?
But yes, I am an atheist. I am not for or against religion. It’s great for teaching people moral values, but it just seems like a huge waste of thought. You live your life, you die. There is no need for there to be some sort of higher purpose for your existence.
This whole “Reality is an illusion! Manifest destiny! If a tree falls in the forest and no one is around, does it make a noise?” just seems to be a product of too much time spent thinking. It really doesn’t matter to me.
Sorry if that got a bit emotional. You try have a conversation like this to a bunch of high schoolers…
Well, you could be right. It’s probably just that as you get older you get more time to think. All that time spent at work when you have to do something to pass the time.
Cathy
In Just Conversation, which is here so that people who already know (of) each other through a shared interest in unicycles can get to know each other better, and just shoot the breeze.
As for the waste of thought. Philosophy is unicycling for the mind: a minority sport with few directly practical applications, but very good for helping you to develop and maintain balance and nimbleness.
Chill.
Cathwood, If I were to define your beliefs I’d call you “spiritual” over anything else, or maybe spiritual atheist. I think most people that hold the same style of beliefs as you would be found if someone researched various forms of paganism or wicca, however. The things you are thinking about (the nature of reality, etc) are metaphysics. An interesting but wholly frusterating (to me) aspect of philosphy.
I like reading your thoughts on the subject. 
Evolution and society are inherently linked. (strong societies are selected for over weak ones just like strong individuals.) You show remarkable insight.
Okay, fine. But atheism is not a belief system. You (and I) have a belief system, but it lies outside of atheism. As an analogy, lack of belief in the Easter Bunny is not a belief system either.
Billy, you are welcome. Also, I am glad that, as you say above, religions praise intelligent thought. I’ve never commented on obedience (except indirectly, at the unicycle club meeting yesterday). Do you want me to?
Being a Christian DOES say something about the person. It says much about their beliefs. There are certain criteria which must be met in order to call oneself a Christian. For example, believing in Jesus. Labeling yourself Christian is a shorthand way of saying “I believe in Jesus. I believe in God. I believe this. I believe that. (etc. – a long list)”
I agree that Christians do not necessarily act upon those beliefs (and end up in jail for murder, etc). But calling yourself Christian says that you subscribe to a set of beliefs. (Not so with atheism.)
Yes, I saw it. And I disagree completely. One does not require faith that a square circle CANNOT exist. Those two attributes conflict. Anything claiming to possess BOTH of those attributes CANNOT exist.
It is possible to apply a similar thought process to God. This is why I was trying to get a definition of God a few weeks ago. What is it that you believe in? If you wish me to believe, you have to describe what you want me to believe in. And if the attributes of this being conflict with each other or with the world-at-large, then I can say with certainty that that being CANNOT exist. No faith needed. Just simple logic.
Why are theists reluctant to define God? I’m ignorant about what God is. Clue me in. How would I know God if I met Him? What are his attributes?