advance to 4 ball juggling?

personally, I first learn by juggling two in each hand in synch, it was easier to visualize the pattern. Eventually I settled into an asynchronous pattern because my throws weren’t regular. I also practiced right in front of a wall so if the balls would bounce back if they got way too far away from me. Mostly just a ton of practice though. I remember trying for a few days, giving it up for impossible, then coming back to it months later and picking it up in a few hours.

As you can see in the animation, your basic 4-ball pattern is very simple, and doesn’t cross. Simpler than three, actually, from a cognitive point of view. The pattern is much easier to grasp, though it’s physically harder to do because of the extra ball.

My teaching-of-juggling background was as a nearly full-time job from 1985-1991. Taught juggling skills to probably 100,000 or more kids during that time, though most were elementary school kids learning the basics. Lots less opportunity to teach the advanced stuff.

I learned 4 using a synchronous pattern based on advice from the many jugglers I hung out with, and possibly a book or two. The synchronous pattern (throwing with both hands at the same time) is harder to do, but a much more useful tool to improve your accuracy. It makes it very easy to see if one hand is throwing too high or low, or if one side has a tendency to cross the centerline. Once you get the synchronous pattern to look good, you’ll be ready to tackle lots of other patterns with your newfound accuracy.

your qualifications ?

I don’t give advice on learning uni tricks I have not tried. Yet there is something about juggling that makes those with the worst techniques feel compelled to teach. That’s OK, I am used to it.:slight_smile:
The worst mistake an inspiring juggler can make is to follow the method of mechanical jugglers. That is, to wait until the ball you have just thrown has peaked before you throw the next one. There is a much better way.
Learn the rhythm of the 3 in one hand circle. You will see that instead of having a tiny window of time to throw the ball, you can throw it as soon as you like. The key is to break out of the rigid construct that one must wait until the previously thrown ball has peaked. This will teach you to juggle smoothly, as well as make all juggling much easier.
Juggling 3 in one hand is easy, but only if you try. I know at least 100 or so people who can do it well. It took me about 3 months of juggling a few hours a day to get pretty good at it. After learning 3 in each hand, it took only 2 weeks to do 5 for 10 sec and catch them all.
To learn 4 in one hand and 7 balls takes maybe 20x as much practice IMHO.
But anyone at all interested in juggling more then 3 balls is well advised to learn 3 in one hand, in both circles and side by side patterns. It is the basic skill upon which all skilled juggling is based. The equivalent of learning to hop
if you wanted to be a trials uni rider.:slight_smile:

No.
3 in one hand is not an easy trick. Maybe for you it was, but the majority of jugglers I’ve talked to say it isn’t easy.
It is much easier to just learn 4 balls than 3 in one hand.

Your qualifications ?

Oh, you have taken a poll of incompetents in the area around you, and they all think your explanation for your lameness is authoritative. Who should now speak the truth ?
No one in my town, that I have ever seen, can ride a unicycle down a set of stairs. Someone told me you must always keep your feet on the pedals or you will fall backwards. Hopping a unicycle up stairs is something only people who have the innate skills of concord jet pilots should attempt. And of course, always default to the lowest possible denominator when trying to assess your own potential as an artist. Take a vote.
And always, always, distrust the guy who juggles 4 in one hand. What right does he have to speak against the common wisdom ? :sunglasses:

Being a good juggler, of however many in one, or two hands, does not in any way qualify someone to teach. The people giving advice are all 4 ball jugglers, none of whom, possibly yourself excluded, was advised to learn 3 in one hand first. They in turn were all taught by jugglers who could juggle 4 and above. I was first shown how to juggle 4 by Ben Beever, and although he may not now remember me, he is hardly an incompetant, (12 ball flashes, 10 ball qualified) but he certainly did not suggest three in one hand first.

You have your right to speak out against the common wisdom. So did Canute.
If you do learn three in one hand ( each hand) first, then learning 4 will certainly require no time at all. However your overall learning time to get the 4 up and running will be greater by far. If four, rather than 5 or 6 is your current target, why make life so very difficult for yourself? I can do three in one hand, 4 in my right, so add me to your list, but how many on that list would make the same recommendation that you do? Close to zero I would think.

I have a friend who used to play classical guitar: he chose to learn “Asturias” as his first piece. After over a year, it was all he could play, and he did not play it that well. He eventually gave up and sold the guitar. I know it is possible to ride a unicycle down stairs, seen it done often enough, but there is no way on this earth that it will be my next trick. Learning to walk before learning to run… and keeping my feet dry at the same time.

Nao

Foss’s post #8 is a good breakdown of how to work your way up. It’s good to get strong control with two balls in each hand separately before you worry too much about trying all four at once. Learn two going clockwise in each hand, two going counterclockwise, two in columns (pistons), etc. Spend a little extra attention on counterclockwise with your left hand and clockwise with your right.

Once you start doing the four, I think it’s sixes as to whether learning synchronous or asynchronous first is easier. For JF it was synchronous, for me it was asynchronous.

The best advice I ever got–when I was stuck and not making any progress–was this: “Think of it as a pattern.” Our brain doesn’t like to think we can do two things at once, and most people tend to think of the four-ball as the left hand juggling two and the right hand juggling two at the same time. Instead, think of it as a pattern that looks like a horizontal figure 8, where the balls don’t cross between hands and each hand alternates to create one of the two circles that makes up the 8. The right circle goes clockwise, the left counterclockwise, and the throws of both hands go up the middle where the two circles meet.

Nao, I call BS

If you can really juggle 4 in one hand, you are obviously a 7 ball juggler. You should understand the wisdom of advising aspiring jugglers to learn the 3 in one hand circle. Note that I never said there was anything wrong with practicing 4 balls. Jugglers will try all kinds of things in any order that interests them, obviously. You don’t sound like a 7 ball juggler. Post something.:stuck_out_tongue:

All the advice here for this has been great. The only thing that I can really add is the experience that I’ve had so far. I had a hard time getting 4 to look good too whether it was synch or asynch. I did however start trying 5balls before I got 4 to look good and other jugglers told me that I’d never do it. Since then my 4ball still wasn’t the best but now I’m flashing 7 consistently. I always try to remain to try things one or two steps ahead of where I should be. That keeps me progressing very fast, and it makes the easier steps feel very remedial.

Now that I’m flashing 7, 5 balls feels so slow, and I can focus on the timing a lot better. I can still remember vividly how hard 5 felt a few months ago. Now 4 is super simple. I can even do 4 balls in one hand. Then again, I just bought Ivan Pecel’s 4/5 ball variation video, and now I have my work cut out for me BIG TIME!

Keep working hard. As of last august (8/06) I could only juggle 3 balls with 2-3 simple variations. Since then I’m pretty sure I’ve dropped 2.3 million juggling balls on the floor…give or take a few.

I totally agree with that. Or were you talking about us? Got much background in juggling instruction? Beware the person that learns the skills too easily; they usually make lousy coaches. Why? Because they didn’t have to struggle as much as most people when learning. This is my experience in unicycling. Nobody taught me how to ride, and I find I don’t excel at teaching the basics. I’m much better at helping people with the more advanced stuff. We have a local guy (John Hooten) who is a most excellent coach, and much, much better at getting people started, partly because he was mostly a basic rider for 25 years or more.

Not exactly. Hopping on a unicycle is several times easier than riding it. Something else I learned from working in the schools. This was back in the 80s with cheap unicycles, where the school had to impose a “no hopping” rule to keep all the cranks from getting bent. :slight_smile:

I have no comments on the 4 ball instructions

You guys seemed to cover it pretty good. I have no opinion on the sync or non synced question. I remember trying it both ways.
I guess I was a little taken back at being told my advice on learning the 3 in one hand circle was wrong. That’s the internet for you. No one does that to me in person !
I have taught thousands of people to juggle. My favorite ball was the weighted tennis ball. This gave me a big edge in teaching. I would go to the tennis court and collect the discarded flat balls. These I would stab with a knife, and pour a scoop of BB’s down a pen top with the end cut at an angle. The slit stays closed when you pull out the pen cap. Armed with a huge bag of balls I didn’t worry about, I went to rainbow gatherings and dead shows and could teach 20+ people at a time. Once you get a party going it catches on. Then if someone learned I would let them keep the balls. The most important thing in teaching is to have enough balls.:slight_smile:

You have a very odd way of reaching conclusions: I distinctly said that I could do 3 in one hand, and 4 in my right. Now it defies all logic as to how you conclude from that that I am “obviously a 7 ball juggler”. It is one case in which 3+4 does not make 7. I do not juggle 7 balls, and can barely get past a qualify with 7. I know a lot of people that do juggle 7 well, but I am not amongst them, and I said nothing to suggest that I was. I also fail to see why you think it in any way relevant, unless you are suggesting that only 7 ball jugglers are qualified and able to teach 4 balls? Teaching 4 balls is more about being able to explain in clear, logical and simple terms, exactly what is required, and being able to see and advise on the problems preventing progress. It helps to be able to juggle 4 yourself in a fairly neat pattern. 4 ball fountain is a fairly low level of juggling, it does not require great skill, either to do it, or to teach it. It does require an explanation that siteswap 4 variations such as fountain require that the balls remain with the same hand, and someone indeed explained this quite early on as being a key. Why you think 60 is the way to go to learn 4 escapes me completely.

Also tellingly, I know a lot of 4 ball juggers too, and none of them thought that learning 3 in one hand ( both sides) was an efficient way in which to advance from 3 to 4.
What you said was

“The best trick to learn …
Is three in one hand. Throw the 2 up quick in a circle, and juggle that way, throw-throw-space, throw-throw-space. Then toss the third ball into the space and do three in one hand circle.
If you learn to do three in one hand circles in each hand, 4 and 5 balls will be easy.”

And I agreed that, if you have a LOT of time, then it is a good way to acquire considerably more skill than is needed for 4. However as a means of being “the key for advancing from 3 to 4”, it is just a ridiculously difficult way of going about it.

You should have stuck when you said:
“Anyway, doing 4 is all about being good at 2 in one hand , in each hand. When you do it, make sure they stay on their own side, not in the center. Notice how the circle is on the left side. Then it’s as simple as doing both sides together”
At that point you were spot on target. Your aim then wandered.

Nao

Nao, you are a fake

I didn’t conclude you are a 7 ball ball juggler. I said it is obvious anyone who can juggle 4 in one hand can juggle 7 balls. The tricks are related and 4 in one hand is the more difficult by far. If you can juggle 4 in one hand and not 7, your name is Captain Hook and I am Tinkerbell. You claimed to be able to juggle 4 in one hand because I posted a picture of me doing it, and you can’t resist being a fake authority. What’s the matter Nao, you don’t have a picture ? Then I bet you’re not even really Asian either. I’m supposed to believe that there is an Asian nerd that can’t use a camera ? Or are you BS ? I don’t think I have to call Penn and Teller.
How about this Miss “you should of stopped before you lost your aim”. In the finest tradition of the uni forum I call you out. Post a video this July of you juggling 4 balls in one hand. I performed it live, but you will have time to make 1000 cuts till you get it once. If you can make 12 throws and catch them all, I promise to send you a set of new JC pedals along with posting an apology. And I pay shipping. :smiley:

Well, Tinkerbell, what if my name is “Can’t do it with the other hand?” Duh. Learning a vertical patterns with each hand does not get you to 7, it’s just harder. You’d still have to practice to get 7 down.

And now a racial slur. You’re proving something, but it’s not that you’re the superior juggling coach. :roll_eyes:

feel the light:

appear for your court marshall at 0600 tomorrow.

you are charged with conduct unbecoming a juggler.

[posted not a minute after John Foss, and only because he’s a faster typer…]

Boy, you lost me on that one Feel. Your posts on this thread quickly went from merely annoying to obnoxious. As Billy notes, conduct unbecoming a juggler. Adding one level 1 fat guy to my ignore list.

You hear that Nao

They know you can’t do it. They are trying to protect your feelings. They know you will never see those pedals. That you are bs at juggling.
Actually, Jc’s are crappy, way heavy, I don’t really want them. People that don’t know better think they are cool cause they come on new KH’s. But you could force me to eat crow and pay shipping. I’d do it, if I was Nao, and was not the only Asian on earth that didn’t have a camera.
Oooooh, another racial joke. Pretty soon I am going to start crediting blacks with inventing jazz and declaring that the French cook better. Put me on your ignore list now !

they make a fiiiiiine poutine :slight_smile:

them all, I promise to send you a set of new JC pedals along with posting an apology. And I pay shipping. :smiley:
[/QUOTE]

Dear dear FTL. Why are you getting so uptight? It appears to me you posted your picture to say little more than “How good am I? Four in one hand! Look at me! I am better than you lot.” It has little to do with basic four ball juggling, four in one hand, so I have to consider exhibitionism as your motive. And just because someone has said that she does not think your method of teaching is the best, is no reason for you to get all shirty about it. It is positively immature of you. You should learn to accept that your view is not the only view. Stop acting like the Queen of Hearts, and treat others with some respect…which would be in the best tradition of the newsgroup.

I have met Naomi quite a few times, and if she did not originate in the Philippines as she says ( which, you should note, is in SE Asia ), then she has one enviable suntan…and she juggles at about the level she has described, or did when I last saw her a couple of months ago. I don’t remember seeing her juggle four in one hand, although I have no reason to doubt that she can, but her left hand is, as she suggests, pretty weak by comparison with her right, and is no doubt a severe hindrance to her juggling seven balls. She should really practice more with her left hand. I doubt that she will post a video: her doing so would not contribute anymore than your video did (Zilch) to the discussion of how best to learn or teach four balls, and in any case she is not a show off type of person. Look at her unicycling posts, quite modest, she never claims to be a good unicyclist, and in fact probably does herself down in this respect. When a modest person says she CAN do something, then it is highly probable that she is telling the truth. And make no mistake, Naomi is one smart and determined cookie, well capable of learning such tricks.

She has stated that learning three in one hand is not, in her opinion the quickest way to juggling four in two hands. That seems to be all she has said. Why does this upset you so much?

I don’t juggle seven, nor four in one hand. I juggle a poor five, about thirty or so catches on average. I just did an experiment: three in one hand. Right hand best seventeen catches, in about a dozen tries. Left hand best just four catches. People have weak and strong hands, some overcome it with practice, others do not.
And no-one suggested I should learn three in one hand before doing any simple four ball work, thank goodness. They did suggest, correctly, that three ball snake was good practice for five though. Four ball snake for seven sounds better than four in one hand too.

I suggest you stop watching Peter Pan for a couple of years, to allow yourself to grow up, and then come back in here and try for a more reasoned response. Certainly before you again so illogically and rudely question the veracity of what anyone in here has said.

JayS

Nao and JayS are the same person

I don’t want to teach how to be a better internet lier. But this thread has got a bit off subject anyway. So here’s the bonus question, how do I know that ?
Hint, no knowledge of juggling is required to figure this out. :roll_eyes: