I’m posting this info so that other people can learn from it (and avoid wasting time and money purchasing things that they don’t need).
The KH36 from ~2009 came with the nimbus stealth 1 rim , which was a 38mm wide, and the spokes needed for it were 362mm for the schlumpf and 373mm for the normal hub.
It is no longer possible, at least not from UDC, to get that same rim. instead you can get the newer version: Nimbus Stealth 2.
It is 42mm wide: better since it is much easier to change the tire & tube, and I read it is stronger as well. And the old tire seems be fit Ok.
But is has two non-backward compatible changes:
spokes lengths: they need to be 2mm shorter. 360mm for the schlumpf, and 371 for the regular hub.
the classic 36 tube has a wide valve, and it won’t fit in the new rim. You have to use the FOSS tube instead, or drill the rim and make the valve whole wider.
Former kh schlumpf hub + 36er stealth 2 = 360mm but only 362mm are available
Hi there, sorry for reopening this thread, but from those I read to do my research, this is the one that better highlight the issue I’m gonna have.
I’m planning to build a G36 from my 2011/2012 Kh Schlumpf hub, with a stealth 2 rim,
Both the udc uk spoke calculator and the document Roger released few months ago give 360mm (359.65mm exactly for the spoke calculator).
But the closest spoke size available at UDC (uk) or even here in France at CDK is 362mm.
So like the OP said :
According to the tips that goes with the calculator :
So, given that 362 is +2mm, all of you guys who have built a G36 with the same hub/rim, how did you deal with that issue?
-Go with 362mm anyway?
-Use ultra short nipples? (which ones?)
-Managed to find 360mm spokes? (where in Europe?)
-Jumped out of the window?
1mm long would put the end of the spoke to the top of the nipple. 2mm’s long would leave a mm above the head. How long is the threaded section of the spokes? If it’s a little longer than normal I don’t think an extra mm sticking out will be a problem.
The biggest issue is running out of threads. Nipple threading changes much less than nipple length. A 12mm nipple has about 10mm’s of threads while a 16mm nipple has about 12mm’s of threads. A 12mm nip will bottom out on the threads when the spoke is about a mm above the head. So, even with 12mm nipples you will be at the end of the threads, and may not be able to tension it correctly (it’s always good to have a little extra). If the spokes available have 11, or 12 mm’s of threads it shouldn’t be a problem. I have seen plenty of spokes with long threaded sections.
Aside:
Also, 3mm’s short puts the end of the spoke below the shoulder of the nipple, and it is the biggest reason nipples break. That is just bad advice on the UDC spoke calculator.
For what it’s worth, when I built my fat-tire wheel, some of the spokes came out about a mm when I got it all tensioned up. I was able to very carefuly file down the end of the spokes. I have ridden it pretty hard over the past year, and had no issues at all. It’s a fat tire though, so the tire absorbs a lot, and a 26" wheel is just inherently stronger anyway. Like jtrops said, if the spokes have enough threads it shouldn’t be an issue. I believe you could extend the existing threads with a rolling tool without messing up the existing threads, but it may be a tricky operation. You could perhaps ask unicycle.com or your local shop if they would try to tackle the task, and be prepared with a few extras in case they have issues.
Thanks you very much for those explanations and details.
I have sent a mail to UDC uk, awaiting the answer, and also am in touch with Romain from CDK who proposes the small nipples solutions, I’m trying to know the length of the threaded part of his spokes. (oh wait, he just measured them at 10 mm).
Romain have built about 10 G36 using 362mm spokes, his small nipples solution may be enough.
Since kh geared hubs (not the last one) and stealth 2 36" rim must be a pretty common combo among G36 owners, I’m also expecting some testimonies about this 360 vs 362 issue.
As a tinkerer and someone who likes to build wheels but not spend a bunch of money on custom parts: I bought a used Hozan spoke threader used on e-bay. Basically it payed for itself in the first wheelbuild in both cost of custom cut spokes and time saved by being able to do it myself.
When a spoke is too long I just add another few mm of thread to make sure it’s not bottoming out in the nipple. On double walled rims I just let them stick through the nipple, as long as they aren’t anywhere near the rim tape.
I built a wheel for my 2010 KH/Schlumpf hub last year using a Stealth 2 rim with 362 mm spokes and long nipples from UDC (and spoke head washers) and I could not tension it enough. I rebuilt it with the same spokes (and spoke head washers) but used shorter nipples and nipple washers. It worked very well. I suspect it would have worked without the nipple washers but I decided to use them to maximize my success.
I too have a Hozan spoke threader. Rolling more threads onto an existing spoke is not difficult at all. When you run the machine up to the spoke it naturally threads onto the existing threads, and then when it gets to the end it starts rolling new threads. I know I’ve read things online about it being risky, and that the threads might not line up. Based on my experience I can’t imagine that actually happening. It is another example of internet “experts” that have no actual experience.
If you could get 10mm nipples it would give you plenty of room to tension your wheel, based on nipples I have seen I would guess that a 10mm nip would have about 9mm’s of threading.
Good to hear actually. I was trying to be careful in how I worded my statement above. My shop here was very hesitant about threading spokes more, and gave some generic excuses. I believe this perpetuates these kinds of things because the shop simply didn’t want to do it. Of course not many people have any actual experience re-rolling spokes. : P I’m definitely one of them.
Though, I looked at the cutting kit I have but didn’t find anything close to needed size for spoke threading.
Isn’t stealth 2 rim supposed to already have washers around the spoke hole?
Spoke washers : this is something I could add if I go with the “362mm spokes + 12mm Nipples” solution.
I could order the spokes at UDC-uk and ask them for cutting them as well.
So the washers you added are inside the rim I guess, right?
(never seen nipple washers before, I guessed the reason why you used them but since I imagined them just a the same place as the rim washers in the first place, I was wondering how weird it could look, until I figure out that they must be INSIDE the rim to be useful :D).
Like I said I’m in touch with him as well.
Taking in account the advice from several well informed or experimented persons is always a good thing, it helps to understand what you are doing in a deeper level, don’t you thing so?
Plus, people made the mistake of simply going with the available spokes, hopping it would work and at the end they couldn’t tension the wheel and they had to do it again, like munimag said.
I prefer to be 100% sure of what I’m doing, I’m speaking about riding one geared giant unicycle, it’s not like if I was gonna ride a B-twin bike or something
And I like to understand, cause understanding is the base of my job.
Normally the washers that go on the nipple are called “rim washers.” Rim washers are generally used on rims without eyelets, but in this case it would be a good solution to add to the ERD.
They aren’t expensive; although, most bike shops don’t stock them because most bike shops don’t build wheels anymore. Even though they are thin I think they will add a bit more due to the way the nipple will seat on the washer vs. the way it seats in the eyelet.
So, that would be just under a mm added to the spoke length. You may end up having the spoke come out of the nipple by just a little, and that is perfectly fine.
