I’ve done a lot of Mtn biking before, and on a 21 speed bicycle I hardly ever used the several lowest gears. I natrually found it easiest to use 4th or 5th gear even on steep hills… I can’t climb anywere in the lowest gear. Wayyy too slow for me…
Re: Why are hills hard on a bike? (unicyclist perspectives)
On Tue, 30 Jan, tholub <> wrote:
>
> zippy wrote:
> > it’s harder uphill on a bike because you normally knock the gearing down
> > to make it easier but by doing that you trying to race your legs and
> > the motion tires you out, mentally and physically.
>
> It is certainly true that a unicyclist who’s never learned how to ride
> a bike will do better on the unicycle.
I disagree. I’d like to see the evidence that makes you certain - have
you done a study of large numbers of people that can unicycle but
never learned to ride a bike? I’ve only ever heard of one person who
unicycled before riding a bike, and I have no information about her
hill-climbing abilities.
regards, Ian SMith
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You need to find some steeper hills! 
The lowest gear on my bike is 24:34 - i.e. the pedals are turning faster than the wheels - and I know of many slopes where that’s only just enough…
Phil
Yea, same with me.
I used to ride xc mtb a fair bit before I started uniing (still do, just not as much). I have only ever come across one hill where I have had to use 1st gear, it was really slow and it was pretty much the steepest hill I have ever climbed, definately not possible for a unicycle.
Re: Why are hills hard on a bike? (unicyclist perspectives)
On Wed, 31 Jan 2007 03:11:32 -0600, phil <> wrote:
>
> forrestunifreak wrote:
> > I can’t climb anywere in the lowest gear. Wayyy too slow for me…
>
> You need to find some steeper hills! 
The lowest gear on my bike is
> 24:34 - i.e. the pedals are turning faster than the wheels - and I know
> of many slopes where that’s only just enough…
Agreed. One of my bikes (sort of xc/trials riding) has rather lower
gearing than that (microdrive chainset, largish back block). I know
of one hill I can just ride up, and the limit is rolling over
backwards, even leaning as far forward as you can and maintain
steering. There’s one other hill I’ve never managed to ride up -
it’s difficult to walk up, and very difficult to drag a bike up.
I’ve never tried either on a unicycle (both are further away than I
usually unicycle). Maybe I should.
regards, Ian SMith
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[QUOTE=Ian Smith]
On Tue, 30 Jan, tholub <> wrote:
>
> zippy wrote:
> >
>
> > It is certainly true that a unicyclist who’s never learned how to ride
> > a bike will do better on the unicycle.
> I disagree…
I guess Zippy means those people, like me, who have much more relevent experience in unicycle riding than bike riding - i.e. never having learned to ride a bike ‘properly’ to achieve the best effect.
I think a big set of gears on a bike is a dangerous tool, which needs to be used wisely before it improves (in climbing speed) on a big-wheel unicycle with some ‘oomph’ behind it.
Sam
I think the evidence is pretty strong that someone who can’t ride a bicycle won’t be able to beat a unicycle up a hill on a bicycle.
Re: Why are hills hard on a bike? (unicyclist perspectives)
[attributions got a bit garbled, I think these are right…]
On Wed, 31 Jan 2007, redwelly <> wrote:
> > Ian Smith wrote:[color=darkred]
> > > zippy wrote:
> > > > It is certainly true that a unicyclist who’s never learned how to
> > > > ride a bike will do better on the unicycle.
> > >
> > > I disagree…
> >
> > I guess Zippy means those people, like me, who have much more relevent
> > experience in unicycle riding than bike riding - i.e. never having
> > learned to ride a bike ‘properly’ to achieve the best effect.[/color]
So, you’re saying (he’s saying) that someone who has learnt to ride a
unicycle better than they have learned to ride a bike can ride a
unicycle better than they can ride a bike?
Well, I agree, but it hardly seems worth saying.
Or are you heading towards something like observing that the average
unicycle rider seems to be a better unicycle rider than the average
bicycle rider is a bike rider?
I’d agree with that too, and it seems rather less of a truism. I
think most people that ride a unicycle out and about, and most people
that do it enough that they think it worth spending time talking about
it, probably are better unicyclists than the average bicyclist is a
bicyclist. Some bicycle groups refer to 'POB’s, which are 'person on
bike’s. That is, someone that isn’t really a ‘proper’, competent
cyclist who knows what they are doing, but rather a random person who
happens to be on a bike, and thinks that if they’re not falling off,
that’s all there is to it. You see quite a lot of POBs (badly
maintained bikes, deathtraps, poor technique, suicidal roadskills,
etc.), but relatively few 'POU’s, probably because you need to put a
moderate amount of effort and practice in to get anywhere on a
unicycle, so anyone getting anywhere must have spent some time
practising.
regards, Ian SMith
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Re: Why are hills hard on a bike? (unicyclist perspectives)
On Wed, 31 Jan, tholub <> wrote:
> Ian Smith wrote:
> > On Tue, 30 Jan, tholub <> wrote:[color=darkred]
> > >
> > > It is certainly true that a unicyclist who’s never learned how to
> > > ride a bike will do better on the unicycle.
> >
> > I disagree. I’d like to see the evidence that makes you certain…
>
> I think the evidence is pretty strong that someone who can’t ride a
> bicycle won’t be able to beat a unicycle up a hill on a bicycle.[/color]
But can someone who can’t ride a bicycle beat someone who can’t ride a
unicycle who is riding a unicycle up a hill on a bicycle?
regards, Ian SMith
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I just dug this up, cos I had a bit of a humbling experience today.
I’m quite fit on the unicycle, can cruise at about 24km/h on the flat with some effort, and get up pretty much all the road climbs I’ve done. I haven’t ridden a road bike hard though since about 8 years ago or so.
I’m living somewhere with some great road rides in the hills. So I bought myself a 2nd hand road bike to play with. Now this thing feels super fast on the flat, it’s really easy to go at 30km/h whilst hardly noticing it. But the moment I hit a hill, like Sam described, it felt really quite hard work.
One of the rides is this ride up a hill to a place called Sign of the Kiwi. It’s 5km distance, 300 and something metres of height, in two halves,one super steep bit, then one long slightly uphill grind to get the last 120m of climbing.
So yeah, on my first ride I got to the top of this 5km hill in 27 minutes. I think I could maybe have taken 4 or 5 minutes off that if I’d had breakfast, rather than planning breakfast at the tea room up the hill, as I wouldn’t have died half way up. But even so, my time up the first half was 12 minutes. My unicycle time is 37 minutes, again I think I could speed that up, but not by 10 minutes.
But the record for this hill is - wait for it - 13.20. Even guys I know who are similar fitness to me at best can do it under 20 minutes. Normal people do the first half in 8 minutes, fast ones go under 6 sometimes.
The amazing thing is, I rode down the winding road down the hill, breaking all of the posted safe speed limits on the corners on the way, and averaged 40km/h and the record is 23km/h average uphill.
So yeah, road bikes, they require a different type of fitness / strength certainly. And the fittest road bikers are in this particular way oh so fit compared to quite fit unicyclists.
Joe
I’m replying from the point of view of a unicyclist that probably spends more time riding his bike than his unicycle. Given the right gradient, I don’t think I’m much faster on my roadbike than on a unicycle. Only marginally so, but mainly because of point (1)
I think point (1) is correct but to make a bike comparable to a unicycle, you’d need to compare a singlespeed bike with a unicycle. I don’t ride a singlespeed bike so can’t really comment.
I think point (2) applies if you ride like a snake. My wheel tracks completely straight unless I’m riding very long cranks or if I’m riding near my max cadence. Most fast Coker riders I know have very little or no wobble.
Point (3) again does not apply to unicyclists any more than it applies to bikes. I don’t spend anymore energy correcting my balance on a smooth gradient. If it was bumpy, then maybe, but generally on the road I’m not constantly thinking about balancing the unicycle anymore than I’m thinking about balancing my bike.
There are other points to consider when comparing the efficiency of both bikes and unicycles:
- bikes usually have a more stretched out position, and you use different muscle groups. But whether this is good or bad depends on what you’re used to.
- Bikes have friction from the chain and also friction from two tyres instead of one. On a unicycle, the power is applied very close to the axle. Minimal flex, minimal friction.
- Unicycles tend to have shorter cranks which means a higher cadence. But you could use a smaller gear on a bike and keep the same cadence. But most bikes have limited crank sizes to choose from. Crank length efficiency probably depends on your body type and leg length. For me, I find the short cranks that we use on unicycles much more efficient than the standard lengths (usually 170’ish) available on bikes, but I have short legs.
- In the case of a Coker, there’s a lot of weight in the tyre/tube/rim. It accelerates like a cement truck.
All else being equal (ie singlespeed, fixed wheel bike weighing the same as a unicycle, going up similar gradient), there probably isn’t a lot in it. But most of the time we’re talking geared bikes vs unicycles.
it is not harder, its all practice if you ride uni more than bike you will be more efficent and similarly if you ride a bike more than a uni.
For me i ride bikes often both xc and road racing so i am far more efficent with a bike and can do hills twice as steep as on my uni.
People have taken information they have recieved and portrayed used it in a way to satisfy what they want to believe.
Bikes have gears uni do not so on a bike you can peddle far slower and thus move slower while still achieving the same goal of reaching the top of the hill where as aon a uni you do not have this luxury.
I don’t think that’s true. I think that on most road uphills, you will be more efficient on a bike pretty much whatever. I haven’t ridden bikes fast for 8 years, I’ve ridden unicycles fast 9 days out of 10 for the last 7 years. I’m still quicker up hills on a bike (40% faster).
I’m still not sure what it is though, like Ken says, given the right gradient and a rider who isn’t wobbly, those reasons suggested earlier are bogus.
It certainly uses a different set of muscles or something too, otherwise I’d be quite fast up hills as I am on the unicycle, whereas currently I’m pretty darned slow compared to your average road biker.
Joe
I think it’s mainly because a majority of MTB/BMX are more heavier then unicycles which in turn means that you have to push more on a MTB/BMX. That’s just me i guess but i think that’s true. Also a bikes front tire can turn at any moment (especially when the tire is flat ;)) So that could be another reason also. 
You may not be able to perceive the lack of straightness of your path, or the energy you’re spending correcting your balance, but I assure you that your path is not straight and you’re spending energy correcting your balance. I know that you, personally, are one of the most efficient unicyclists on the planet, but that doesn’t change the physics. Above walking speed, bikes tend to go straight and stay balanced, and unicycles tend to turn and fall down; try jogging while pushing your bike or unicycle, and let go, and see what happens. On the unicycle, you are expending energy with every pedal revolution to keep it straight and balanced; what other explanation do you have for the fact that a unicycle falls over as soon as you let go of it, but stays balanced when you’re on top of it?
Oh, one more point: The bike 24-hour record is 534 miles, more than twice as far as Ken’s amazing unicycle feat.
Actually, side to side balance, if you let go of a coker when it is moving, it won’t fall to the side, and will stay balanced for ages. Otherwise coker bowling wouldn’t work. It’s only forward backward balance that doesn’t do itself on a big wheel. Which arguably if you’re pedalling smoothly is taken care of by your pedalling. If you bowl a coker well, it will go further than a bike would in similar circumstances, as the bike front wheel will twist.
The 24 hour record is partly gearing related, you just can’t spin that fast on a unicycle. There’s currently no way to make a unicycle that you can start riding on, but which also lets you ride in a 5:1 gearing or so. We’d need to have a very high geared easily shiftable unicycle to find out.
I still am not convinced Ken is right that unicycles are equally efficient to bikes on the right gradient, but I don’t think the explanations being offered here are very good.
There is actually some experimental evidence (from pedal mounted force sensors) that suggests that the amount of energy input at the pedals goes way way down as the rider gets better. There’s no obvious reason why it needs to be any more than the energy required to move the rider and wheel over the distance.
Someone should get a fixed gear bike, with 150mm cranks and 1:1 gearing together at a unicycle event, then we could play with it and see how fast it was compared to a similar unicycle. I think it would be slightly faster as long as it was used on downhill and flat, so you could spin out, which you can’t do on a unicycle, but on uphills it would be a really interesting test.
Joe
i just though it was funny, that on saturday i took my dad’s bike from the shop (just got it serviced - i couldnt be bothered to fix it anymore) back to my house about a 2km ride.
and theres abit hill on the way to my house (in fact several) and i was so so so tired.
I havent ridden a bike for now maybe 1-2yrs… and i wont go as far as saying the unicycle is better than the bike at hill climbing, but its different muscles, and i think thats the answer to it. When you do alot of unicycling different muscles develop.
Its true that i climb big hills faster than cyclists most of the time on my 19" trials lol but i mean i probably practice a whole lot more than them.
Minor Factors:
Wobble
Energy towards balance
Wind resistance
Coker Tire/tube = HEAVY
No clipless pedals
No freewheel (downhills)
The Huge Factor:
Gearing.
I think in situations where gearing is not an issue, aka “the right gradient” that a unicycle will be close to the performance of a bike (maybe 85% of the performance). This is, of course, given that the cyclists will both be equally fit on their chosen cycle.
I think as geared unicycles become more prevelent, the gap between uniycles and bicycles will get smaller. Also, one thing you have to remember when comparing bicycle records and unicycle records is that many many many more people have attempted the bicycles records, and many of them are elite athletes. There’s no such thing as a professional road unicyclist. I believe that the unicycle distance record will be bested many more times than the current bicycle record. (maybe even by the current record holder)
The 534-mile bike 24-hour record was set on a bike with a 55x16 gear ratio, which equates to about 90 gear-inches. Outta Phaze is already set up at near 70 gear-inches, and that design should be able to be extended to 90 gear-inches fairly easily.
I don’t think that anyone would argue that Ken Looi (or insert your favorite fastest unicyclist, if he’s not it), on a 90 gear-inch unicycle, could cover 534 miles in 24 hours (an average speed of over 22 miles per hour, including any stops). It’s completely implausible.