wa have been arguing about that before … there is not enough gold and silver in the galaxy to meet the amount of exchanges of goods in good ol’ earth!
- having a gold standard won’t help beating inflation! counterintuitive but can happen!
And again, the free market would be free to use anything it chooses as money. Only the government is limited to gold and silver.
A dream world
There isn’t enough gold and silver for the USA gov to conduct it’s business. Were we to suddenly decide to attempt to anyway, the price of gold and silver would sky rocket. Who is gonna lend us the money to buy the trillion dollars of gold and silver it would take to run the gov one year ? This is beyond fantasy. Remember, we are in the hole for 10 trillion $. Inflating the money may not seem like such a great idea. However, the only other paths are taxing enough to collect 10 trillion plus interest, and paying it off, or default. I don’t see any other way. 
The problem of a small portion of the people interpreting the constitution as demanding coin money, is a tiny problem. Unless the supreme court decides to make this a problem (extremely unlikely), it is irrelevant.
I suspect that the founding fathers hadn’t a dream of anyone believing their words would be taken by some as prophetic. That 250 years in the future someone would quote them as a sound source of guidance on managing an interlinked international global electronic monetary system. John Handcock had a hell of a signature, and Franklin was a genius. I doubt very much they considered themselves economists, or that their preference for gold over paper should be carried on into future ages of electronic commerce. I bet if we could bring Franklin back today, it would take a long time just to explain to him the question. “What do you think of electronic money, created by debt ?” How long would it take for him to stop insisting it’s lightning ?
Yes indeed! Fireworks were AWESOME!
:o =>
What? Why? You two are speaking as if the prices of these metals were fixed.
We’re using precious metals as a standard (or, were using) because they’re precious. If we had unlimited amounts of these metals, they wouldn’t be valuable, nor would the currency based on them be of any value.
The concept you’re missing here is that the value of these metals are allowed to fluctuate, and prices of goods change accordingly.
What you probably mean to say is there isn’t enough tax revenue for the US gov’t to continue it’s current line of businesses. That’s how the US gov’t gets money. Well, that or running the printing presses… but those presses hurt the gold “standard”… and the US economy as well.
One main point of a real gold/silver standard is that they can’t run the printing presses. That they are limited only to taxation, in which the detrimental effects are more obvious to see the cause of for the people. Their way of using inflation makes it where the economic problems are delayed and the politicians can blame something else later on, as we see with the current housing boom.
The original revenue for the US government was envisioned to be done by imposing tariffs on imports, along with some other excises, to cover the running costs of the federal government in it’s strictly limited roles. If there is a deficit one year, then the federal government had the power to impose a direct tax on the state governments in proportion to the number of representatives each state had, thereby making federal debt a short-term issue. This happened soon after ratifying the constitution to cover the Revolutionary War debt, and then during the War of 1812 and the Civil War. It’d be up to the states to then determine the best way in their state to raise the funds to pay that direct tax on them. Capitations (which is exactly what the income tax effectively is, as it’s being executed today) and other direct taxes are prohibited in the constitution.
We’ve entered an era where the definition of the unit of currency seems to have no definition. What is a dollar anyway? When the US government issues a bond and the federal reserve just prints/issues new money to buy it, what exactly are we borrowing anyways? Can’t the US government just print/issue more money instead of having to pay the Fed interest? Ah, but the dollar is defined and has a definition that has to be fixed, according to the constitution. That definition is that a dollar is 371.25 grains of pure silver.
I agree with feeling the light on that we should let the dollar be inflated to death (it’s going to happen whether we like it or not), as the system is rigged right now to where there is no way to pay off the debt. But we can’t allow that without having an alternative… not the “Amero”, but by allowing competing currencies and lifting the regulations that prevent competition in the market and banking system.
OT, but I just came across this lovely quote from an sec.gov webpage:
Ah, social security.
Crash…
I didn’t really understand the chart
On the question of why the government can’t just print more money, instead of borrowing it from the Fed and paying interest…
I believe that the USA gov debt is mostly in the form of treasury bonds that are sold in an open market. Many purchased by other countries. Member banks of the Fed are required to own a certain amount of these notes, as a condition of Fed membership. There are different sizes, but basically it’s a promise to pay you 20,000 $ in 20 years. Then these notes are auctioned off and traded freely on the market. So a 20,000 $ bond that was 18 yrs old, would be worth close to but always < 20,000 $. One that is 3 years old could be bought for a lot less. Someone like Gilby who thinks there will be massive inflation in the next 17 years, probably wouldn’t value it much. Following the bond market is a way of seeing what the rich people think the dollar will be worth in 20 years. These bonds are bought mostly by the rich, or large institutions. They are a staple of credit. China corporations that own 100 million $ in USA gov bonds, get a much better credit rating in the USA then if they had not purchased them. Companies will be willing to do business with them that otherwise would worry to much about being paid.
For sure though, if the bonds paid no interest, no one would buy them. This is why the USA gov pays interest on it’s bonds. It does not pay interest to the Fed exactly. Anyone can buy a bond. Also, the Fed is a privately owned group of banks. The branch of the treasury dept that does the coinage and printing thing, is all USA gov agency. They are apples and oranges.
The Fed prints no money. Yet they are the only ones that create it. This idea confuses some. The member banks have (collectively), an infinite prime rate credit line, and create new money electronically, when you take out a loan. They borrow at 4 %, loan to you at 6- 28 %, and are happy to play the game. Banks can and do lose serious cash on bad loans. It is common for banks with to many bad loans to close, their share holders zilched out. The other member banks may shed a crocodile tear over a sour cocktail, perhaps even play golf and cry in drinks around a pool.
However, they really don’t rush to save a fellow member bank. They are competitors. They kinda jumped on Bear Sterns and picked it’s carcass clean, a little while back. So to think of the Fed as a monolith of unity is incorrect. It is a quasi USA gov chartered organization of hundreds of privately owned banks with a unique role to play in our country. A role that has nothing to do with printing money. The Fed could not decide to print money to bail out a member bank. They are banks, not engravers.
The printing and coining guys just fill orders. They have nothing to do with the Fed. They are treasury dept guys I think. If a member bank calls up and says they want 7 million in 20’s , the truck is loaded, and 7 million in electronic dollars is gone from the account. Only enough paper money is printed to keep up with demand. They have printed 3 trillion $, and we are 10 trillion in debt. This could cause a panic bank run, a periodic snag in the bad old days of gold money. Now no one cares. You are free to hoard gold and silver if you want. And we all believe that Brinks truck of cash will really show.
The value of the USA dollar is defined by it’s difficulty to counterfeit, and it’s controlled inflation rate. If people lose faith in either of those two, the value of the dollar tanks. Otherwise, it’s better then gold and silver.
I don’t grasp at all Gilby’s statement that we need to legalize competing currencies. You are free to hoard or conduct non state business in any currency or coinage you prefer. Few people consider it worth the bother. Mostly, barter is used largely in friendly trades, or as a means to evade taxes. All “Legal Tender” means, is that if you sue and win in a USA court, you will be paid in USA dollars. You will be taxed, fined, paid or rewarded through the USA court system in USA dollars. Not some stupid loonie thing, or a piece of eight or a small horse with good teeth and a basket of goods. 
The electronic dollar kicks ass because it is fast, secure, doesn’t lead to coach robberies, and you can buy gold with it if you want. I just don’t want to be forced to buy gold.
I wish to preserve my freedom to believe in the future of the USA dollar, and not to be forced against my will to buy gold or some stupid commodity just because I want some money. YOU buy gold if you want it. Don’t make me give up my super fantastic instant international loonie euro coverable plastic uber kicks ass dollar card. That’s not freedom. That’s total BS. You are not giving me the freedom to store precious coins. I already have that. You are just pulling the card, while mandating that I invest in gold-silver if I wish legal redress. That’s a huge reduction in my personal freedom IMHO. On top of being impossible to implement without an insanely chaotic and painful collapse of our present system. 
I get the impression that some of Ron Paul’s revolutionaries see the elimination of the Fed and electronic “dishonest debt money”, as bringing on freedom, by mandating coinage be used by everyone. I see it as a poorly thought out reaction to the confusion about how money is created now, in the age of electronic currency. I see myself as enjoying the option to invest in any metal, commodity, or currency I desire now, and losing that freedom under a Ron Paul like gold coinage system, that can only benefit the extremely wealthy. Not that the wealthy support the gold standard. They generally have a better understanding of economics. They would rather reap a percentage of an expanding economy, then sit on their pile of gold (that year by year grows in value), while society sinks into depression and ruin about them. Deflation is much worse then inflation. During inflation, the masses eat, and blame the gov that they aren’t rich. During deflation, the masses starve. The fact that their gold is worth more don’t help the folk that ain’t got any. They get real angry, and they blame the rich.
The printing of money has no logical connection in the modern age with the expansion of the money supply. It has no connection with the USA gov deficit spending. These are totally unrelated things.
When people refer to “printing money” today, they don’t mean just making more paper money, but the creation of more money, whether digital or physical. So get over this terminology already.
As for competing currencies, you are not being forced to invest in gold or silver. You can choose whatever f’ing currency you want to save, transact, or invest in. You are not forced to to use Federal Reserve Notes, which are subject to the Fed simply issuing more money and being devalued. Your freedom would not be hindered to use whatever you want in agreement with the whoever you transact with.
Yeah, right, and this is what the USC says:
So, I am free to get myself a 5 year prison sentence.
We are forced to use irredeemable notes, which makes them not worth what the denomination on them say they are. Even the US Treasury claims they have no value:
The term “value” is a legal term, so this means they have no legally defined value and therefore, a “one dollar” FRN is not a dollar or valued at a dollar. Today it takes 13 FRNs to buy one dollar in “lawful money”.
Also on that page, it says that FRNs are liabilities of the Federal Reserve, and obligations of the US government. The legal tender laws simply is the government trying to force their obligations on us. FRNs are bills of credit issued by the Federal Reserve, that can be used by the US government to pay back any debts it has with the Fed.
So, the dollar can tank under the federal reserve system. Otherwise it’d be as good as good or silver. Sounds like an endorsement for gold and silver based currency.
When the dollar tanks, it’s not pretty is it? This can not happen with gold or silver. There will be a day when the greenback will not be worth a continential (the first paper money of the USA).
Why should the banks have that monopoly on creating new money and that artificial rate in which to get funds. Also keep in mind that this is a fractional reserve system. If they loan out $1000 to us at 6-28%, they only need to get a loan for $100 at that 4% to meet the reserve.
Sucks for the shareholders, but what about the board members…
…the board members who got billions in bonuses got bailed out. If the Federal Reserve did not sweep in to rescue them, at our expense, Bear Sterns would’ve had to file bankruptcy and then the board members would’ve had their bonuses at stake in the bankruptcy proceedings to cover their debt. Massive confiscation of wealth from the American people to the banking cartel.
You have yet to make a valid case that “competing currencies” would only benefit the extremely wealthy. The prime reason to get rid of the Federal Reserve System is that it benefits the extremely wealthy, because the banking cartel gets special treatment and bailouts, and it enables government to have excessive deficit spending. This deficit spending benefits the extremely wealthy because most of it is in the form of corporate welfare. Because of this highly centralized and massive amount of available loot, the politicians are elected based on their ability distribute this loot to the corporations because these corporations are the ones who end up funding the campaigns. They also own the mainstream media.
It’s a system in which laws are passed to hinder free entry of competition, combined with this massive amount of corporate welfare. It’s the wealthy who benefit from corporate welfare and the preventing of new competitors.
[I]“The war against illegal plunder has been fought since the beginning of the world. But how is… legal plunder to be identified? Quite simply. See if the law takes from some persons what belongs to them, and gives it to other persons to whom it does not belong. See if the law benefits one citizen at the expense of another by doing what the citizen himself cannot do without committing a crime. Then abolish this law without delay … If such a law is not abolished immediately it will spread, multiply and develop into a system.” – Frederic Bastiat
[/I]The system is here, and the Fed is a primary driving force of that system.
counterfiting coins is illegal
However, the private minting of various coins is a common, legal practice. You just aren’t allowed to make legal tender coins, for the obvious reason.
http://www.franklinmint.com/product1.aspx?SID=2&Product_ID=9455
But if you wish to convert all your dollars into gold coins with your picture on them, give these people a call, enjoy your freedom !
Did you even read that section of the USC? You can not pass or utter coins as current money even if they are original design.
I don’t know what the USC is
However, at coinable.com, they will make you any coin you want out of gold, silver, plastic or whatever you want… I have seen custom coins all my life. I am sure it is not illegal to make coins, as long as you don’t counterfeit. Get your gold Elvis today ! Just don’t copy a legal coin, or stamp US treasury on your one Gilby . It might be illegal to mark a dollar amount on it, I am not sure. I have seen many companies print their own tokens or bills. A Wendy’s dollar, etc.
But anyway, there are tons of reputable businesses that will make you a gold Gilby for a price. Do a google and see.
OK, I’ll admit, the term “current money” is a legal term and I may have made it seem to include more than it really should. Black’s law dictionary says that “current money is equivalent to lawful money.” Remember, FRNs are not “lawful money”, they are simply “legal tender”. So the question is, is any coin made of silver or gold “lawful money” or is it any coin that is officially minted by the US government that actually conforms to the “standard of weights and measures” which is lawful moey or current money?
Black’s law dictionary also has:
That’s still confusing, because if silver or gold bullion become the main “currency” then does that make it the current money?
I have a friend who prints his own money
He is a comedian who does a street show about the number 22, his name is Love 22, and his face is on the bill.
Technically, if he tries to pass it, he’s a counterfeiter. But as part of the show he passes out this money.
He has had opinions from the secret service that his bills are illegal, at least technically. Yet he was never convicted, just threatened and told to stop. He never did.
I think it gets down to the prosecutor’s call. If he feels he can get a jury to agree it’s counterfeit, then it looks like you will go down for counterfeiting. I think they considered Love 22 to be more of a screwy annoyance then a real threat, so they have sorta closed the file on him.
I think with coins there is pretty much no attention paid by the secret service. There just isn’t many people trying to fake coinage.
I don’t see why they would object to someone that minted silver or gold coins. The trouble is that people would have more trust in the metallurgy of a Krugerrand, maple leaf etc. Few would buy a gold coin they had never heard of. Most of the custom coins I have seen were sold as fund raising commemoratives.
