Should there be a death penalty?

Off-topic
1

That one thread about that “executed man’s last request” seemed to be leading to this, so here’s a thread to debate whether or not the death penalty is right.

In any case, here are my thoughts on the topic:

First off, we must all think to ourselves, why do we have a justice system at all? What is the reason behind punishment for crimes? Why do we give any punishment at all? How does the justice system benefit our society? It is my opinion that the justice system has the potential to benefit our society only because it is effective in preventing would-be criminals from committing crimes, because they fear the punishment. Additionally, when criminals are put away in jail, they are unable to commit more crimes, which also seems like another plus for the justice system. Really, in my opinion, the justice system should only serve as a system that prevents people from doing specific bad things, and nothing more than that. I would not care to support anyone who wishes to simply get revenge on someone else. I would, however, like to support the idea that bad things should be prevented from happening.

Now that that has been covered, it must be considered if the death penalty really helps the justice system do it’s job in an efficient manner. To begin, I would like to point out that nowadays giving people the death penalty is actually more expensive then giving a life sentence to someone. I think that it would be a lot more efficient to hand out life sentences instead, because really, criminals won’t be able to commit any crimes whether they are dead or in jail. The criminal is no longer a part of society, and is therefore no longer a threat to society either way. Also, to be completely honest, I really really doubt that anyone will decide to commit a crime simply because there is no death penalty to scare them away. To me, a life sentence sounds a hell of a lot worse than the death penalty. The death penalty seems like less of a punishment, and more of an easy way out. If I had a strong motive to commit a very serious crime, I can honestly say that if I knew that I would get the death penalty for it I would be much more content with committing the crime than if I were threatened with a life sentence. I assume that many people would agree with me here. The death penalty does not cause people to think twice any more than a life sentence does. If this is really the case, then the death penalty would be more expensive, and either just as or not as effective as a life sentence would be in letting the justice system do its job.

I would also like to assert that while the death penalty is irreversible, a life sentence is somewhat reversible. There have been many cases in which someone was sentenced to death and then later found to be innocent, and that was that. No way to bring him back. If someone in jail is found to be innocent, it isn’t very hard to pull him out of there, and set him free. I believe that our justice system should be set up in a way that allows for a change of mind. Our constitution is set up in such a way that it can be changed in the future, if you see that something in there hasn’t been working out, and I think that it’s good to keep the option of turning back open as much as possible, as you never know when you will need to turn back. It’s better to give punishments which allow for such changes, as it’s fairly apparent that as time rolls on, we are bound to find out more about everything in general, and therefore we may realize that we have been mistaken in the past.

I also think that it’s fairly silly and childish to say that someone “deserves” something, as really, fault can never be placed on an individual. People get angry, people want to hate others, but they don’t realize that fault can’t ever really, logically, be placed on anyone. There are really two things that make people the way they are, and therefore make them behave the way they do. These things are how they were born, and the environment that they were placed in (environment meaning basically everything outside of them). Really, nobody has ANY control of either of those things. You are born yourself, whether you like it or not, and you experience the things your environment causes you to experience, whether you like it or not. You can’t blame people for things, you can only blame specific things such as how they were born, how they were raised, how the other children treated them at school (your not blaming the children, but how the children treated them), How they learned what was right and what was wrong, what book they found one day lying on the floor, things like that are the only things you can blame really. While blame of others, revenge, and deserving are all things that do appear to exist emotionally, when examined very closely they do not make sense, and are really just selfish illusions.

So really, in punishment, there is no deserving, there is only prevention, and that is the only function that punishment could ever serve and still be true, and still have the general public’s best interest in mind. The death penalty doesn’t do as good a job in prevention, and punishment shouldn’t be about anything OTHER than prevention.

2

There should not be a death penalty. Period.
I agree with everything you said about why there shouldn’t be the death penalty.

In Canada, the death penalty was banned 33 years ago, but no one has been executed in 47 years. I like this, because as you said, it is irreversible, more expensive, it doesn’t change the way criminals think, etc.

Also, I don’t think it is a human’s right to decide who lives and who dies depending on what crimes they’ve done.

3

Personally I’d sooner 1 million guilty be kept in prison for life to prevent even 1 innocent man from being killed.

With the number of death row inmates being exonerated by DNA evidence it’s injustice to humanity to continue to use the death penalty.

4

It sounds like you’ve a very loose definition for the term “effective”… as there seems to be a problem with crowding in many prison systems across the US.

You should remember that the criminal mind is quite different than the mind you or I use. They’ve rationalizations for their actions that erase any sort of feeling of wrongdoing, or fear for that matter. It may seem black-or-white to you if an action is a crime deserving punishment, but not for others.

Are you sure about this? Besides the fact that there is prisoner-on-prisoner violence, what about criminal acts perpetrated from within prison, such as gang activities? What about the effect that prison has on some people, further blurring their ideas of right and wrong, having lived for a number of years with so many other criminal minds?

Your use of this term, “justice system” and “do its job” in the same sentence opens quite a can of worms. As with any complex system, the justice system has many, many flaws, just as many people have different ideas on what “its job” is.

Some believe, as it seems you do, that its job is to prevent crime and/or punish criminals. Others believe that its job is to reform people who have made poor decisions. No where in your “essay” do I see any mention of reform. What about this aspect of the justice system?

Time is not reversible. Traumatic experiences are not easily reversible. You’ve stolen a significant chunk of one’s life, possibly ruined many of his relationships, possibly bankrupted him and destroyed ability to seek decent employment. How can any part of a life sentence be “taken back”?

I think you’re choosing your words poorly here. One’s life should not be determined by what someone else is thinking from day-to-day. Might you re-explain this thought?

Constitution != Criminal code.

The way I read this paragraph, it seems you’re exonerating all criminals of their crimes. You’re not saying it directly, but it seems you’re arguing for the abolition of the justice system altogether!

IMO, there needs to be some method of correction or reform, to show criminals what they should (or shouldn’t) do if they want to remain as free individuals within our society. Call it dissuasion or negative feedback if you will, but there are positive aspects to the justice system.

Countries that focus on reform and rehabilitation see much lower rates of re-incarceration (yeah, citation needed, look it up yerself)… why can’t we take the same stance? I believe there is a bit too much corruption in our state and federal governments for this to be overcome right now. The prison system is a huge moneymaker for some people, and as we’ve seen with tobacco, pharmaceuticals and the auto industry, it takes a lot to precipitate any change here.

I can’t glean a lot of sense from this sentence. What do you mean by “true”? What “best interest” are you speaking of, specifically?

5

Thank you, I had not considered this problem. Perhaps building more prisons is a good solution? I don’t know.

I’m sorry, I meant to refer to what it should be effective in, ideally.

I agree, there are very many flaws in the justice system now. I think that a lot DOES need to be changed when it comes to what goes on in the actual system. The reason I didn’t address it, is because it doesn’t have much to do with the death penalty. But yeah, a lot of improvement is necessary, and should be taken care of.

I did say SOMEWHAT reversible. Like they can be taken out of jail after awhile, and maybe offered some sort of compensation. There’s not a complete “undo” option, but there’s a hell of a lot better a repair option than with the death penalty.

I basically meant that if they found out that a person that has been considered guilty is actually found innocent, then they should be open to the new decision of innocence, and behave accordingly.

I feared that it may seem that way, that’s why I put it towards the end.

What I was trying to say here is that really the idea of “punishment” shouldn’t be what the justice system is about. It should be strictly for prevention, and should treat those who have committed crimes in as nice a manner as possible, while still being effective in preventing bad things from happening. I hope I’m making sense here…

Basically, the justice system shouldn’t “get back” at criminals. The justice system should perhaps cause people to think twice before committing crimes, and it should keep people that have committed crimes in the past that would likely to commit other crimes in the future from committing crimes in the future.

I don’t doubt it

By true I meant truly justified. By best interest I meant the general happiness of everyone.

I hope I covered everything nicely. Don’t be shy if you would like me to elaborate on something else. :wink:

6

Maybe we could build new prisons with the money that we save from keeping people in jail instead of executing people?

7

Just to iterate my stance on the subject… I, too, am against the death penalty, and for some of the same reasons aforementioned. I’m just here to play devil’s advocate, as usual. :smiley:

I forget where it was, but I had read a recent news article that some country had to close several prisons due to lack of occupation. You say that the condition of our prison system has nothing to do with the death penalty, but I’d consider that an improved justice / reform system might lead to the end of the death penalty, if it significantly reduced the population of prisoners that needed such treatment.

You’re focusing on the criminal here, but what about the victim(s)? How is “justice” administered if the victim sees no recompense of the crime that occurred? I agree that retribution isn’t always appropriate, but at the same time, we can’t leave the victims out in the cold!

Justification and happiness are wildly subjective. This sounds like your “emotional” basis for vegetarianism. You know that’s not going to fly with some of us 'round these parts… :wink:

9

I do not support the death penalty simply because we can never be sure of guilt. There have been many former-death-row exonerees. You can’t be released from death, only from prison. You can’t get back wrongfully imprisoned years, but you can still have a meaningful life afterward.

You remind me a little of a Skinnerian behaviorist. Whatever happened to the concept of free will? I take the position that we are born into circumstances, but choose take action or react to those stimuli. I choose my actions. I believe my nature and nurture guide my choices, not determine them for me. You could argue that choice is an illusion, which it seems that you are.

I don’t accept that all choice is just the playing-out of some complex system of stimuli and pre-conditioned or pre-determined responses. It’s cold, mechanistic, and leaves little if any room for creativity, humanity, and experience.

Without free will, without true choice, we are all only complex, organic machines. I believe that although we all possess a complex, organic machine (our bodies), there is something about humanity that transcends the physical, cold, mechanistic, “scientific” view of reality and human behavior. What this is is up to each individual to figure out.

10

On the other hand, DNA evidence is being used more and more as a very accurate tool to link specific persons with crimes.

But I digress. If a death penalty is supposed to act as a deterrent, it doesn’t seem to be very effective. If it’s supposed to save the state (us) money by not having to house evil people forever, that doesn’t work either due to the succession of appeals.

Does it work for the families of victims? Maybe a little. But some victims’ family members also oppose the death penalty, even though they’re in the process of trying to convice someone who killed a member of their family. That says a lot.

In California, the purpose of the prison system is to generate income for the prison-related labor unions. As a side-note, it keeps some bad apples off the streets.

11

Life’s a death sentence

It’s also a terminal illness :smiley:

12

maybe we should build better schools, since better schools make zero to few criminals.

13

not for the labor unions, but for the employed, as well as all the industries that service the prisons.

Dead Kenedys song California Uber Alles: “We’ve got a solution for the minorities.
send them to the California Youth Authority”

By the way, of all criminals, your best bet is to release someone convicted of murder. they are least likely to commit murder again. murder has the lowest recidivism rate.

14

CUltures with the death penalty have lots more murders per capita because the government is a bad role model.

If they were athletes, they’d be fined or pulled from the Hall of Fame for acting like the government.

15

Probably you’ve never been in Brazil.

16

Brazil doesn’t even make the top 62.

1 Colombia: 0.617847 per 1,000 people

2 South Africa: 0.496008 per 1,000 people

3 Jamaica: 0.324196 per 1,000 people

4 Venezuela: 0.316138 per 1,000 people

5 Russia: 0.201534 per 1,000 people

6 Mexico: 0.130213 per 1,000 people

7 Estonia: 0.107277 per 1,000 people

8 Latvia: 0.10393 per 1,000 people

9 Lithuania: 0.102863 per 1,000 people

10 Belarus: 0.0983495 per 1,000 people

11 Ukraine: 0.094006 per 1,000 people

12 Papua New Guinea: 0.0838593 per 1,000 people

13 Kyrgyzstan: 0.0802565 per 1,000 people

14 Thailand: 0.0800798 per 1,000 people

15 Moldova: 0.0781145 per 1,000 people

16 Zimbabwe: 0.0749938 per 1,000 people

17 Seychelles: 0.0739025 per 1,000 people

18 Zambia: 0.070769 per 1,000 people

19 Costa Rica: 0.061006 per 1,000 people

20 Poland: 0.0562789 per 1,000 people

21 Georgia: 0.0511011 per 1,000 people

22 Uruguay: 0.045082 per 1,000 people

23 Bulgaria: 0.0445638 per 1,000 people

# 24 United States: 0.042802 per 1,000 people

25 Armenia: 0.0425746 per 1,000 people

17

Is this the ‘murder per capita’?
Clearly, the person who made this list has never been to Brazil.

Hahahaha

18

Rezzy, maybe you’re right, maybe there’s some confusion …

25 per 100,000: Brazil’s Per-Capita Homicide Rate Is Three Times the World Average
Written by Newsroom
Thursday, 25 December 2008

Earlier this year, in September, the United Nations released a report on Brazilian arbitrary, summary, or extra-judicial executions, elaborated by the special investigator Philip Alston, who visited Brazil for 11 days in November 2007.

The investigator covered cities in the states of São Paulo, Rio de Janeiro, and Pernambuco to examine security politics, police violence, the prison system, the actions of extermination groups, rural violence, and violence against indigenous peoples.

According to the report, approximately 48,000 deaths occur in Brazil each year, making the country’s homicide rate one of the highest in the world.

Data from 2006 shows that the homicide rate per capita is much higher than the world-wide average, with 25 homicides per 100,000 inhabitants. The world-wide average is 8.8 deaths per 100,000 inhabitants, not including deaths related to wars.

19

I agree…
Death Penalty is wrong in every way possible…
I actually have a sticker on my snowboard that says “Why do people kill people to show people that killing people is wrong”
very confusing but if you think about they have a point…

20

Because they take victim’s wishes into account at sentencing, Gild has a wallet card that says: In the event I’m murdered, do not kill the person found guilty of it.

21

Whether or not it’s just our bodies or something greater that is operating our consciousness doesn’t even have any relevance here. I do not assume that we are simply organic machines, I am undecided in that area, but regardless of that, free will is still an illusion of sorts.

Think about it. Even if we did have some kind of spiritual side to us, even if we weren’t entirely dependent on our brain, there would be absolutely no way for us to create our “spirit”. Our “spirit” would be created at a point in time when it didn’t exist beforehand, so in that case, we could not have been responsible for making ourselves the way that we are. So our spirit was made in a specific manner, a manner that governed how our spirits would react in specific situations, and then our spirits were placed in specific situations, to create who we are today. Free will is an illusion of sorts, regardless of whether we are spiritual beings or simply organic machines.