Seat Angle Adjustment- why is it even needed???

I agree with ImFalling. Given that a typical uni seat is curved, what you do when tilting the seat up and down is moving your sitting location back and forth. And since - again - a typical uni seat is narrower in the middle, a bit wider in the front and a bit more wider in the back, you can find a spot where you sit most comfortably. I found for myself that I sit most comfortably on a location a bit back from the middle (more ‘flesh’ to support my weight), while my thighs move around the narrowest part of the seat, where there is minimum rubbing and chafing. On a standard non-adjustable seat the narrowest part is approximately the lowest, and hence where you sit. That means that I tilt my seats a little bit nose-up compared to non-adjustable seats, but not nearly as much as some other riders.

One can argue that Ken’s original questions could really be asked for a ‘hypothetical’ seat (curved or not) that has the same width everywhere. For real-life uni seats, I think there sure is an effect of tilting (beyond just tilting the frame in compensation).

Yes, that is the other issue. Seat angle adjustment doesn’t necessarily translate to seat angle adjustment; it translates to which part of the saddle you end up sitting on, because of saddle curvature.

The whole point of a seat that widens out at the back is because that is where the weight should be supported (ie the ‘sit bones’ or ischial tuberosities of the pelvis).

How many people actually plant their weight on the widest part of the saddle? What is intended to happen isn’t what happens in reality.

I have mine set up now were my weight or butt bones are on the widest part of the seat.

This statement is true and therefor should have made a point.
When asking about the effects of a change in whatever setting, it’s always usefull to try and imagine the extremes of the range of this setting.
I couldn’t ride a unicycle while seating on a full up tilted seat, same goes for a full down tilted seat.

Sorry to resurrect this old thread, but since seats are… well, just seats, I suppose the topic is timeless.

I was just thinking about this too. I arrived at a similar theory.

Firstly, if 1) the saddle was a constant width throughout, and 2) its curvature was a perfect arc, then all tilt settings would feel identical to the rider, and therefore there would be no need to adjust tilt as long as the seat was sufficiently long front and back. Some riders may want their seat longer at the back and some longer at the front, so manufacturers would have to make seats that are long both ways to satisfy everyone’s needs. This would make the seat heavier, so seat that can be moved back and forth pleases everyone whilst keeping weight down (as well as materials and therefore cost).

For argument’s sake we’ll assume saddles are arc-shaped, now let’s add in two constraints:

  1. The equilibrium position requires that the rider’s centre of mass (from the sit bone up) lies vertically above the wheel axle.

  2. Saddle width is not constant, and riders will subconsciously position themselves so as to maximise comfort, which usually means sit bones on the widest spot of the saddle. Call that the sitting spot. Furthermore, the sitting plane must be horizontal (i.e. parallel to the ground) so that the rider doesn’t slip forwards or backwards on the saddle.

The first constraint is a fact, and the second one a requirement. Now can this requirement be satisfied for any given angle of the frame with respect to the vertical? Short answer is no:

Figure 1: Saddle in neutral (horizontal position), the red arrow is perpendicular to the saddle at the sitting spot.

Figure 2: In order to achieve equilibrium, rider tilts frame forward. Now the sitting spot is directly above the wheel axle (green dotted arrow) but the sitting spot plane is not parallel to the ground plane; instead it’s aggressively tilted forwards like a slide—bad.

Figure 3: Seat angle is adjusted until sitting spot coincides with the top of seat tube, and the red and green dotted arrows are co-linear, thus ensuring all constraints and requirements are satisfied (equilibrium and comfort).

Another side effect of seat angle adjustments is that the position of the handle (and brake lever if one is present) are affected as denoted by the fat red dot.

Even if the seat was a perfect arc of constant width, from a mechanical perspective the optimal configuration is one where the rider’s weight lies directly above the top of the seatpost, as this ensures only axial compression forces are exerted on the seatpost. An off-axis load will exert both compression and torque, the latter usually being mechanically more taxing and an important consideration if the seatpost crown (don’t know the correct name for this) is welded. In the following diagram representing a frame+saddle, the right configuration would be stronger:

Riders tend to compensate for inadequate saddle configurations by hunching forward. This achieves the equilibrium and comfort at the sit bones, but negatively affects comfort elsewhere e.g. the lower back. A bit like an ergonomic chair vs a cheap crappy chair: both get the job done but the former does the job better.

I probably shouldn’t dip my toe into this thread, but…

I learned to ride in 1979 on crappy old Schwinn seats. 40 years later, we are using exactly the same type of seatpost, which has become the de-facto standard thanks to KH and Nimbus, I think. This is not the newer Pivot post, of course, but the smile-shaped post top with the four bolt slots, allowing for maybe 1/2" of adjustment to the front or rear.

Dial the clock back to 1979, with seats that were not great, pockets not full of money to experiment, and a nearly non-existent market that offered mostly worse alternatives for other seats. Bradley Bradley and I figured out in our first few weeks of riding that we preferred sliding the seat all the way forward. This put the front higher, and seemed to provide a little more crotch/butt support for long rides in a time without seat handles, handlebars or advanced foams inside.

I have no idea what you are trying to get at with those diagrams, much less the 2012 part of this discussion. Moving the seat on a Schwinn/KH-style 4-bolt seatpost does exactly what it appears to do when you slide the seat back and forth in those slots; tilts the seat. The frame moves slightly to the front or back, in relation to the frame, but this is irrelevant; the tilt is all you can feel.

For many years after our early Schwinns, we rode Miyata unicycles with no seat angle adjustment. We didn’t particularly miss it; instead we shoved extra foam into the seats to give them a little more cushion. At least those seats had handles at the front and rear (before the “actual” handle; you could still get a pretty good grip on those bumpers).

What is my point? I guess it is to ask what’s the point of this thread. Have a nice day! :stuck_out_tongue:

Think of the unicyclist as 3 linked beams with 2 (hinges): the torso (the hips) the thighs (the knees) and the lower legs.

The angle between the torso and thighs is important for comfort and efficiency of pedalling. In turn, this angle affects the angle between the thighs and the lower legs.

You can of course change the angle of the seat by tilting the frame backwards. Tilt the frame backwards and the saddle will point upwards.

However, that will move the seat back behind the axle. Therefore, it will move the rider’s backside back behind the axle.

The riders backside has mass: more in some cases than in others.

In order to compensate for the mass of the backside being further behind the axle, some other mass has to move forward of the axle. Therefore, if the backside is moved too far backwards, the torso has to lean forwards to compensate.

Thus, the unicycle is balanced as normal, but the rider is in a less comfortable and efficient position. The “hinge” between the torso and thighs is a smaller angle than ideal, the thighs are slightly more horizontal than ideal, and the angle between the thighs and lower legs is also changed.

It is easiest to visualise these effects by considering exaggerated extremes:

  1. If the seat were exactly over the axle, the rider would be in a very upright posture. The rider would look like a capital I

  2. If the frame were angled back say 45 degrees (for illustration) the torso would need to lean forwards uncomfortably. The rider would look like a question mark: ?

The best approach is first to find a riding position that is comfortable and efficient. That will probably involve the torso being reasonably upright, and the backside only slightly behind the axle. Then, once the best riding position has been found, the angle of the seat can be adjusted so that it supports the backside comfortably in the backside’s correct position.

There is some comparison here with bicycles. A racing bicycle will have a steep seat tube angle so that the rider’s weight is almost over the bottom bracket. A granny bike/cruiser/shopper will have a shallower angle but the rider cannot pedal so effectively. There are differences too, of course, because a bicyclist has another wheel to help to balance the machine.