Rules: Age groups for racing

Claus Willemer wrote:
>we have to reduce the number of age groups, may be until 10 (=children),16
>(or18 =juniors),35 (=adults) and over 35 (=seniors).

Currently the minimum age groups for IUF racing are 0-10 (20"), 0-13, 14-18,
19-29, 30-up. This is only one group more than Claus suggests, but divided
differently. Remember the host can always add age groups as desired. This year
we had the new rule where age groups could be combined if there were not enough
entries. This was generally not a problem for racing, rather we had the
opposite problem.

Even with fewer age groups and a far lesser chance of the average rider winning,
large numbers of people entered anyway. This tells us people will play to play,
and aren’t there just to win. So even with no age groups, there would probably
be big participation in racing, because people like it.

Our problem at UNICON was massive numbers of riders for each age group, but
limited number of lanes on the track, so lots and lots of heats had to be held
for each race. The 400m race took most of the day to run!

But the way things look, even with less age groups, at a big UNICON (or NUC) we
will still have hundreds of riders for each race.

>Second it might be good to make track days with competitions for children an
>juniors and other days for the adults and seniors.

I didn’t like the division of male/female at UNICON (all the girls raced, then
all the guys). But I don’t know if that division would be an improvement either.
Of course it wouldn’t for families (maybe the parents would choose to watch the
kids and then not participate on the next day). My ideas below.

>National elimination is in my opinion in this moment not a good idea, first
>there are many nations with only a few unicyclists and others with a lot more.

Elimination by country would not be so bad (it’s one of many possibilities in my
mind). Let’s say five entries are allowed per country per race event (age
group). For a country like Germany, there is enough organization where a
competition can be held in Germany, before UNICON to find the German champions.
This is how it’s done with artistic bicycling. All those people who want to
participate get to ride at that event. For the small countries, all of their
only five riders get to participate. This gives maximum chance to encourge more
participation from that country, and it’s similar to the Olympics with its
Jamaican bobsled team, etc.

More difficult would be the middle countries. Let’s say there are 20 riders
coming from Australia. They don’t have a national competition, and the 20 people
are from far flung parts of the country and have never met. If there is no
national organization in Australia, who decides? They can submit race times from
their own practices, but someone will have to believe them.

>Beside the competitions shold be place for fun and training, certainly one
>always open hall or good and central place outside (depending on the weather)
>for training and exchange of experiences.

This has been a central theme from nearly everyone involved in this. I agree we
must push it for future conventions. But we can’t “mandate” it in the
competition rules, because it’s a convention thing, not a rules thing.

>Please dont flame me, just a few thoughts (and I knew that it is not possible
>to organize all together in an optimal way, so aknowlidges to everybody who
>organizes such events)…

Don’t flame me either. And let’s follow Claus’ lead in congratulating the
organizers of UNICON (and NUC) on great conventions! Both were very large, and
both tried many new things for the first time. Yaaay!

My ideas (so far):

We learned this year that reducing the number of age groups saves money on
medals and makes them more meaningful, but does not seem to cut down on the
amount of participation. We almost got buried by racing heats, and spoke very
seriously about cutting events like the wheel walk, even though it’s part of the
World Racing Champion points. We did cut the Relay and Ultimate Wheel races.

So maybe we should do some races that are open to all, and others that are for
specialists only. We already do this to some degree. Our marathon has
traditionally been an “everybody” race, even though the vast majority of
competitors are out there for fun and not to win. The same is true for the 100
and 400m races. At UNICON III in Japan (851 registered riders!!!) the 100 and
400 races had huge participation while the rest of the track events were limited
to the international attendees and the top Japanese riders.

We can keep open enrollment for some races (like those), but restrict it for
others to “expert”. Then the big races can have age groups (at host’s
discretion), while the expert races need none (like the Olympics). This is
how we originally did events like gliding and coasting. But how to choose
the experts?

Pre-qualifying is messy. From some countries, like USA or Germany, it would
probably be easy. We have our own competitions here, where we record the results
of races and it’s pretty solid data. But what about Japan or China? At our
current level of communication, there is still a lot that isn’t being understood
between our language barriers. This is illustrated by the constant changes made
in registration information at the convention, and consistent bad results in
Standard Skill by riders who don’t have rules available in their own language.
We might get qualifying times from these countries but they may not have been
determined in the same way…

But let’s grant that some riders can be pre-qualified. The USA (or U.S.
branch of IUF) can verify that Dana Schneider is worthy of expert races, and
she shouldn’t have to take up valuable convention time proving it. But many
other riders don’t have a way to prove this. So eliminations will still be
needed at UNICON.

Here’s an easy way: On the first “track” day of the convention, riders try to
qualify for the Expert races, and some “everybody” races are held. Enough of
both to keep it interesting. “Qualifications for the 100 meter race will be held
for the next hour”. Riders get in line, ride 100 meters at top speed and their
time is recorded. They don’t need to ride with age groups or in complicated
heats, just one at a time with an electronic system taking the times. If the
time isn’t fast, it need not be recorded at all. This can be done on both sides
of the track at the same time for most events. The only purpose of this is to
see if you’re good enough for the experts. Maybe you even get two attempts, like
slow races and obstacle? Later the list of qualifiers is announced.

Riders who are not serious about these races will be less likely to take up time
in the qualification round, because there is nothing to win. But they should be
welcome to try their luck, so they know how they measure up. I think that’s why
many riders do it.

If we want, we can choose enough finalists for several heats of each race. There
will be no age groups in the expert races. If a kid in the 11-12 age group can
set a new record in the 1500 (which I’m pretty sure Yingxin Du did at 4:03.55),
we don’t need age groups. Let’s say we get 24 finalists per event. This gives us
three heats on an 8 lane track. Those heats are organized by qualifying time, so
the fastest riders race together where they can pace each other. Then there can
be a final “world championship” race of the top 8 or 5 of them. Surely that
would be interesting for spectators!

But not for the 1500. Our method for running the 1500 was not followed this
year. It is figured differently from the other races for two reasons that are
very obvious if you’re a rider:

  1. Riders shouldn’t have to do it twice, at least not the same day!
  2. Riders of similar levels must be on the track together because this race
    involves pacing, psychology and other factors that are not as important in
    the shorter races.

Riders should only be admitted into the 1500 final(s) unless they have
submitted their practice times in a verifiable way. I don’t know what way. It’s
okay to let the liars look like fools out on the track, but not if there’s too
many of them.

As an alternative to the qualification round, each attending country can have an
appointed representative. It is this person’s job to make the list of which
riders from his or her team are going to participate in each racing event. This
can be figured out before the convention if possible, or at the convention by
going out to the track and running the races informally with the other members
of the team. This method should work fine, but requires a recognized leader from
each country. Some groups may fight over who gets to be the leader from their
country…

Now to address the age group crowd. “If we have no age groups, what about the
kids/old people?” There are other reasons why we come to the conventions.
Instead of beating the other 11 year olds in the 1500, I’d like to see more
games and fun events that all can play. This year Steve Dressler and I
organized a very informal Sumo competition. It was a blast, but toward the end
I realized there were a lot of riders watching who wanted to play, but were too
small. We were just putting two riders against each other and letting them go
at it (with some rules). This event needs age (or weight or size) divisions to
be fun for all.

So instead of going for that medal in all those races, equal fun can be had by
doing other things. Let’s come up with more ideas for things!

I’ve written enough now, more later!

John Foss

RE: Rules: Age groups for racing

Jack wrote:
>I think “mandating” it is not such a bad idea. Who said we can’t have rules for
>the convention part, just like we have for the championships part?

The idea is interesting, but I don’t know if/how we could implement it.
Everything we “require” of convention hosts is an additional thing they have to
do, and less freedom for them. They have always seemed happy to provide what’s
required for running our competition events, but perhaps that is truly not
enough because sometimes little or nothing more gets provided, and there’s no
practice gym, etc.

Maybe convention hosts are looking for additional guidance on what we want for
a conveniton. But we will have to work together with those hosts when making up
the requirements. The people in China will have to agree to anything we want to
“require” for UNICON 10. At the least, we could make up a list of what’s
expected at a convention.

A convention “wish book” could contain all the great things we would like to
have at the convention. The hosts could then go through this and arrange their
facilities with it as a guide. When they have their facilities worked out, they
can announce it to the public in the form of “There will be a practice gym
(dimensions) available from 10 to 10 every day. There will be x dorm rooms, x
sq. meters of floor space for sleeping, and these hotels. There will be two
electronic timing systems for racing. There will be more pastries available than
last time.” Then convention goers will be able to decide whether or not this is
the convention they want to go to based on that. I can’t sympathize with riders
who, in the past, have gone to conventions with expectations that did not fit
with what was known to be planned, if they had asked or read the information
more closely.

>Older riders sometimes complain about unfairness. As things stand now, an
>80-year old must race with a 30 year old.

I heard no complaints. I don’t think I’ve ever heard from older riders asking
for more age groups, but you’ve been a strong proponent of it, and I guess
you’re not that young anymore…

But unfair? Unfair is when you go to the competition with certain justifiable
expectations that are not met. I certainly feel bad for all the people who
brought ultimate wheels over long distances for a race that was not held. Of
course it was publicized somewhere that all events cannot be guaranteed to be
held, due to weather or other factors.

Unfair is when a 40-49 age group is advertised, and when you buy your airplane
tickets and show up they’ve decided not to have one (this is separate from the
possibility of combining it with 30-39 based on number of entries, which was
publicized). Unfair is a 1500 meter expert race that was not held because the
hosts “thought it would be better to do it their way”. I’m sore about that one.
Unfair is basically when the rules are officially violated. But not having age
groups isn’t unfair. There is a difference between the world championships and
the 80-89 championships.

>Maybe there should be an event that is not part if the championships but is
>part of the convention. People spend a lot of time and money to go to a Unicon,
>and we should make them feel welcome by giving them a chance of some kind.

My proposed ideas were for certain races to be “experts only” with an
elimination round to determine the experts. Other events would be designed for
participation by all, with age groups or some other divisions. Some of these
would be races, but I also hope for more “fun” events based more on
participation than competition, like group rides and tours, chains, and informal
contests such as Sumo or a High Jump.

>Who knows if that is not the reason that there were fewer, if any, senior
>citizens at Unicon IX.

I don’t think it was. Most of the senior riders are attending with family. I
know that I wouldn’t travel halfway round the world for the sole purpose of
competing in some 30-39 races. Though that was all I entered, it was not my main
reason for being there.

>Interesting idea, and we should explore it further. At the same, I want to
>suggest that we give those top riders in the qualifying races who don’t
>qualify for the championships some form of recogntion, such as a participation
>award, say up to the top five riders.

Not a bad idea, but remember these would be the 9th, 10th and 11th, or 25th,
26th and 27th. Those races would be designed for experts, while other events
would be where the “average citizen” can still shine.

>As for the qualifications for races, I want to repeat my proposal for a system
>based on trust. We just let people declare their best times and take their
>word for it.

I think we can use a combination of both. Riders from countries where racing
competition is held can report results from races there. Anyone who’s been
at a UNICON before can base their times on past performance, even though
it’s 2 or more years old (if they’re faster they can go thru the normal
qualifying procedure). But I don’t think it’s otherwise a matter of trust as
much as accuracy.

>If 1% or 2% lie about it, so what? We still achieve our goal of eliminating the
>bulk of the slow riders.

I think few will misrepresent their times deliberately, but I think it’s more
accurate to assume that 30 - 40% of riders have no idea what their times are
because they don’t time themselves. Many of these people will be likely to make
up times rather than go to the effort of actually finding a track and doing
timed practice runs. Of course these are people who don’t train for racing, and
therefore are less likely to be contenders in expert-type events.

So some riders can pre-qualify, but some form of elimination will still be
needed (for rider who sign up last-minute, who didn’t have registration
information in their language, who decide last-minute to enter races, etc.). So
we can figure out who’s times to believe, and who has to go through the process
anyway. The hassle of doing this might even spur more countries into setting up
racing competitions themselves… :slight_smile:

jf

RE: Rules: Age groups for racing

>As for the qualifications for races, I want to repeat my proposal for a system
>based on trust. We just let people declare their best times and take their
>word for it.

I just thought up another idea for qualifying racers based on previously
known times. You don’t have to believe anybody. Just set up the races with a
minimum time.

“This 400m qualifying race will be held in a 1:10 range. Riders who do not
finish in 1:10 or less will be removed from the results. The fastest riders will
move on to the Expert 400m race.”

1:10 is a very relaxed requirement for a 400m male race, based on winning times
this year of 1:00 and even less. For female it would be a little higher.

Again I stress that this would only be used for races that are not being run
for everybody. Those events would still use age groups as we do now, the fastest
overall times advancing to the final race.

I recommend that the 400m race not be held for everybody, because it takes up
the entire track and only 8 (or less, depending on lanes) riders at a time can
do it. I was witness to the amazing way it was done in Japan at UNICON III, but
this will only work with lots of well-trained officials, and a track of the
right shape, where the finish line doesn’t overlap the start. I think the track
in Bottrop would not have been usable for this.

Races for “everybody” should be the 100, and 1500, representing both short and
long track racing. The Obstacle Course because it’s run one at a tine anyway
(and it’s too cool not to do). And other races as we choose.

jf

Re: Rules: Age groups for racing

Greetings

In message “Rules: Age groups for racing”, Foss, JohnX wrote…
>>Beside the competitions shold be place for fun and training, certainly one
>>always open hall or good and central place outside (depending on the weather)
>>for training and exchange of experiences.
>
>This has been a central theme from nearly everyone involved in this. I agree
>we must push it for future conventions. But we can’t “mandate” it in the
>competition rules, because it’s a convention thing, not a rules thing.

I think “mandating” it is not such a bad idea. Who said we can’t have rules for
the convention part, just like we have for the championships part?

>>Please dont flame me, just a few thoughts (and I knew that it is no
>We learned this year that reducing the number of age groups saves money

Older riders sometimes complain about unfairness. As things stand now, an
80-year old must race with a 30 year old. Maybe there should be an event that is
not part if the championships but is part of the convention. People spend a lot
of time and money to go to a Unicon, and we should make them feel welcome by
giving them a chance of some kind. Who knows if that is not the reason that
there were fewer, if any, senior citizens at Unicon IX.

>Here’s an easy way: On the first “track” day of the convention, riders try to
>qualify for the Expert races, and some “everybody” races are held. Enough of
>both to keep it interesting. "Qualifications for the 100 meter race will be
>held for the next hour".

Interesting idea, and we should explore it further. At the same, I want to
suggest that we give those top riders in the qualifying races who don’t
qualify for the championships some form of recogntion, such as a participation
award, say up to the top five riders.

As for the qualifications for races, I want to repeat my proposal for a system
based on trust. We just let people declare their best times and take their word
for it. If 1% or 2% lie about it, so what? We still achieve our goal of
eliminating the bulk of the slow riders.

Stay on top, Jack Halpern, IUF Vice President Website: http://www.kanji.org

Re: Rules: Age groups for racing

Greetings

In message “RE: Rules: Age groups for racing”, Foss, JohnX wrote…
>>Older riders sometimes complain about unfairness. As things stand now, an
>>80-year old must race with a 30 year old.
>
>I heard no complaints. I don’t think I’ve ever heard from older riders

I did.

>asking for more age groups, but you’ve been a strong proponent of it, and I
>guess you’re not that young anymore…
>
>But unfair? Unfair is when you go to the competition with certain justifiable
>expectations that are not met. I certainly feel bad for all the people who
>brought ultimate wheels over long distances for a race

Yes, unfair. What is the whole idea of groping by age and sex, anyway, if not to
put people of similar physdical ability together? If you think that putting an
80 year old is not unfair, then why not race an 6 year old with a 26 year old?
The difference in ability is proba bly the same, if not much greater.

No, I think cutting age group off at 30-39 is EXTREMELY UNFAIR and defeats the
very purpose of having age groups in the first place. And let me emphsize that
this is not a personal thing. I normally get 1st or second place anyway, and I
have no personal interest in this. But when I see a 72 year old man racing
against a 30 year old man, there is only one term for this: age discrimination
at its best.

Regards, Jack Halpern Kanji Dictionary Publishing Society, http://www.kanji.org
Voice: +81-048-481-3103 Fax: +81-048-479-1323