Riding hiking trails?

system · November 29, 2001, 2:55pm

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I rode the Appalachian trail last week for about 4 miles. It
rocked. I know

it’s marked “foot traffic only” and in other places “no MOUNTAIN BIKES.”

I rode it from 6:30 am to 9:30 am. It’s November. I didn’t see a soul.
Was I a bad boy? If I thought I was actually causing harm I wouldn’t have
done it, but I think it’s quite probable that Muni causes LESS erosion
damage than many hikers who grind up the turf with their boots. Mountain
bikes, on the other hand, go fast, skid and spin out, seriously ripping
up the soil.

I figure if I see someone coming up the trail, I’ll just hop on my feet,
fling the Muni over my shoulder and play dumb. It would be plausible to
say I’m “hiking” to some dirt road up ahead. Opinions? Anybody ever had a
run-in with a park ranger?

The first time I rode on the Appalachian trail, I did run into one elderly
hiker. He was standing and inspecting me gravely. I got nervous and
prepared for him to confront me. Then he said in a solemn tone, "Has
anyone pointed out to you, that you are missing a wheel? For once, I
really got a chuckle from the stupid uni joke!

Joe Merrill

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<HTML>I rode the Appalachian trail
last week for about 4 miles. It rocked. I know - it’s marked
“foot traffic only” and in other places “no MOUNTAIN BIKES.” I
rode it from 6:30 am to 9:30 am. It’s November. I didn’t see a
soul. Was I a bad boy? If I thought I was actually causing
harm I wouldn’t have done it, but I think it’s quite probable that Muni
causes LESS erosion damage than many hikers who grind up the turf
with their boots. Mountain bikes, on the other hand, go fast,
skid and spin out, seriously ripping up the soil. I figure if I
see someone coming up the trail, I’ll just hop on my feet, fling the Muni
over my shoulder and play dumb. It would be plausible to say I’m
“hiking” to some dirt road up ahead. Opinions?
Anybody ever had a run-in with a park ranger? The first
time I rode on the Appalachian trail, I did run into one elderly hiker.
He was standing and inspecting me gravely. I got nervous and
prepared for him to confront me. Then he said in a solemn tone, "Has
anyone pointed out to you, that you are missing a wheel? For once, I
really got a chuckle from the stupid uni joke! Joe
Merrill</HTML>

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system · November 29, 2001, 3:19pm

Nycjoe@aol.com wrote:
> I rode it from 6:30 am to 9:30 am. It’s November. I didn’t see a soul.
> Was I a bad boy? If I thought I was actually causing harm I wouldn’t
> have done it, but I think it’s quite probable that Muni causes LESS
> erosion damage than many hikers who grind up the turf with their boots.
> Mountain bikes, on the other hand, go fast, skid and spin out, seriously
> ripping up the soil.
>
> I figure if I see someone coming up the trail, I’ll just hop on my feet,
> fling the Muni over my shoulder and play dumb. It would be plausible to
> say I’m “hiking” to some dirt road up ahead. Opinions? Anybody ever had
> a run-in with a park ranger?

For the most part I’d agree with you. Where unis DO do more damage than
walking however, is in mud. Most hikers walk around or tip-toe through not
wanting to get too mucked up themselves. Most MUnis plough through because
it’s more fun, but churn up the mud while doing so.

You have to take it seriously and survey the situation yourself. If it’s
going to do damage then avoid the mud etc.

Keep in mind that one of the results of churning up mud is that it tends,
over time, to make the path wider and wider because hikers will walk
around the churned up spots rather than tip-toe through. The mud also gets
deeper and takes longer to dry up.

On a dry day I probably would have riden it as well though when all is
said and done.

Christopher

“Be Bold and mighty forces will come to your aid.” -Basil King (Anyone who
can give me more info on THIS Basil King please email
me.)

My small but growing site: http://home.earthlink.net/~crgrove/index.htm

If you are in the Ann Arbor/Ypsilanti, MI area check out my resume and if
you know of a company that fits me please let me know… Thanks!

Ben_Plotkin-Swing · November 29, 2001, 4:20pm

I’ve also rode some on the Appalachian trail, and it was a lot of fun. The trail I rode on has long sections of log bridges, which were a blast.

It was a little more crowded when I went, but nobody seemed to care that I was riding. I didn’t realize that bikes wheren’t allowed there.

If I where confronted about riding on a trail I wasn’t meant to be, I would probably argue what Chrisopher said about errosion. It really seems to me that without brakes, there is no way that unicycles present the same errosion risk to trails that biking does.

Ben Plotkin-Swing

system · November 29, 2001, 5:44pm

<Nycjoe@aol.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.1007074292.1438.rsu@unicycling.org…
> I rode the Appalachian trail last week for about 4 miles. It rocked. I
know
> - it’s marked “foot traffic only” and in other places "no MOUNTAIN
> BIKES."
>
(snip)

While many different types of animals can cause damage to the environment,
only humans can come up with a good rationalization for it ;>) I should
know, I’ve done it often enough.

A Muni’s biggest deficit is that half the number of wheels deliver twice
the
psi to the trail. This produces pressure erosion which will eventually
“groove” the trail and yield more potential runoff erosion. Fastpackers
and horses are worse. Walkers are the least damaging. The biggest
problem is numbers. Lot’sa walkers will do more damage than a few
Munis. Jim

system · November 30, 2001, 3:04am

“Christopher Grove” <c_r_grove@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3C06C272.235E1A22@yahoo.com…
> For the most part I’d agree with you. Where unis DO do more damage than
> walking however, is in mud. Most hikers walk around or tip-toe through
> not wanting to get too mucked up themselves. Most MUnis plough through
> because it’s more fun, but churn up the mud while doing so.
>
> You have to take it seriously and survey the situation yourself. If it’s
> going to do damage then avoid the mud etc.
>
> Keep in mind that one of the results of churning up mud is that it
> tends, over time, to make the path wider and wider because hikers will
> walk around the churned up spots rather than tip-toe through. The mud
> also gets deeper and takes longer to dry up.
>
> On a dry day I probably would have riden it as well though when all is
> said and done.

I thought that walkers did more damage for exactly the reasons above. Once
there is pretty muddy mud there, the amount of extra damage done by
further trail passes over the mud is minimal, whereas walkers tend to
avoid the mud, thus widening the trail and causing off-trail erosion,
which is the big bad nasty that land managers want to avoid. On-trail
erosion is inevitable, but trail maintenance should take care of that.
Horses are even worse, because they walk around and really mash up the
ground bad. I rode onto a horse trail in the dark the other day, probably
10ft wide, all totally mashed up mud several inches deep.

Joe

system · November 30, 2001, 5:57am

Joe Marshall wrote:

> I thought that walkers did more damage for exactly the reasons above.
> Once there is pretty muddy mud there, the amount of extra damage done by
> further trail passes over the mud is minimal, whereas walkers tend to
> avoid the mud, thus widening the trail and causing off-trail erosion,

So we should get rid of the hikers then!!

Christopher

“Be Bold and mighty forces will come to your aid.” -Basil King (Anyone who
can give me more info on THIS Basil King please email
me.)

My small but growing site: http://home.earthlink.net/~crgrove/index.htm

If you are in the Ann Arbor/Ypsilanti, MI area check out my resume and if
you know of a company that fits me please let me know… Thanks!

system · November 30, 2001, 12:09am

Poaching a hiking trail is not a good idea. It will get you and the
mountain bike (and muni) community as a whole in trouble.

Mountain bikers poach closed trails around where I live and it just makes
it harder for the people trying to get new trails opened up to bikes. We
have a couple of bike trails that close for a few months over the winter.
The land manager is friendly to mountain bikes, but when bikes poach
trails that are clearly posted as closed the land manager is not amused.
It’s hard enough just to keep existing trails open to bikes. Don’t make it
worse by riding a hiking trail.

But what really irks me is motorcycles that poach MTB trails. They eat the
trail up. Put big ruts in it. Damn them.

To get some good karma join a local mountain bike club that’s affiliated
with the IMBA. Volunteer to help with some trail work. It sure is fun to
ride over a section of trail that you helped repair.

john_childs

Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp

system · November 30, 2001, 6:03am

John Childs wrote:
>
> Poaching a hiking trail is not a good idea. It will get you and the
> mountain bike (and muni) community as a whole in trouble.

All this discussion about MUniing on trails is academic for me as I’m
still a beginner. If I ride a trail it’s still on a bike.

Frankly the day I get to the point in my riding skills that I manage to
churn up a little mud I’ll be ecstatic… and feeling guilty. You make a
good point John.

Christopher

“Be Bold and mighty forces will come to your aid.” -Basil King (Anyone who
can give me more info on THIS Basil King please email
me.)

My small but growing site: http://home.earthlink.net/~crgrove/index.htm

If you are in the Ann Arbor/Ypsilanti, MI area check out my resume and if
you know of a company that fits me please let me know… Thanks!

harper · November 30, 2001, 8:46am

Some eco-extremist signs I’d like to see:

Play area: no children please

Salmon run: trout prohibited

Nature trail: no perversions or dogs

Trails…hmmm. I wonder what they’re really for. Foot traffic? Bikes? Native Americans only? Chipmunks yes, gophers no? Don’t forget to tiptoe by the giant radicals ready to control your life in every microscopic way imaginable. They know better than you what should be right and wrong.

My apologies. I feel a little better after an anonymous rant.

system · November 30, 2001, 8:48am

Joe,

the issue, other than the land manager’s authority to do whatever, is
compatiblity.

Mountain Bikes are generally incompatible with foot traffic because they
can - and do - reach lethally high speeds on narrow trails with zero sight
distance. Bad.

Erosion …? Downhill biking can leave nice little continuous erosion ruts
right down the fall line. Bad.

So, what the unicycle community needs to do is to convince land managers
that a uni on a wheel 26 inches or smaller is only capable of speeds of a
hiker (or less) and not going to cause erosion problems as well.

But until this is done at the management level, poaching a hiking trail
just gets everyone into trouble.

G

system · November 30, 2001, 9:51am

harper wrote:

>
> My apologies. I feel a little better after an anonymous rant.

Anonymous???.. We know where to find you!

Christopher

“Be Bold and mighty forces will come to your aid.” -Basil King (Anyone who
can give me more info on THIS Basil King please email
me.)

My small but growing site: http://home.earthlink.net/~crgrove/index.htm

If you are in the Ann Arbor/Ypsilanti, MI area check out my resume and if
you know of a company that fits me please let me know… Thanks!

system · November 30, 2001, 11:13am

In article <mailman.1007146053.10017.rsu@unicycling.org>, george peck
<gpeck@arctic.net> wrote: ) )Joe, ) )the issue, other than the land
manager’s authority to do whatever, is )compatiblity. ) )Mountain Bikes
are generally incompatible with foot traffic because they )can - and do

reach lethally high speeds on narrow trails with zero )sight
distance. Bad.

That’s a red herring. Horses reach lethally high speeds on narrow trails
with zero sight distance, too. The issue with mountain bikes on trails is
about control. It’s not about safety and it’s certainly not about
erosion. -Tom

system · November 30, 2001, 12:23pm

> All this discussion about MUniing on trails is academic for me as I’m
> still a beginner. If I ride a trail it’s still on a bike.

That’s interesting, I’ve never felt confident enough with my biking skills
to ride trails. I find my unicycle is much more forgiving.

jeff lutkus

Sent via the Unicyclist Community - http://Unicyclist.com

jagur · November 30, 2001, 12:40pm

trails

its the people on the mountain bikes that screwed it up years ago…there was a time when,hikers were the mountain bikers…now its just TRASH N DASH down the mountain>>>>>

system · November 30, 2001, 12:49pm

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Agreeing with Joe. To be destructive, you have to ride pretty
aggressively, such as jumping off and landing with speed on a muddy or
fragile slope. X-country trail riding is - to my experience - usually
light on the soil.
=20
Last week I found out I could kind of brake’n’squid after a short downhill
leading to big nice public fire road in a downtown park. Too bad, I was
leaving big grooves on the humid soil. A more peaceful riding style
would never ever lead to that.
=20
On the other hand, I would avoid poaching trails (especially if you may
meet rangers)
=20
Oli-
=20
<snip>=20

So the logical conclusion I am drawing from my exerience, and from this
thread, is that Muni in general, is equal or less destructive than
walking/hiking. Pound for pound, this may always be the case since hikers
will always far outnumber the Muniacs.=20

Joe=20

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<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.3103.1000" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD> <BODY>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV>Agreeing=20
with Joe. To be destructive, you have to ride pretty
aggressively, = such as=20 jumping off and landing with
speed on a muddy or = fragile slope.=20 X-country trail
riding is - to my experience -=20
u<FONT color=3D#0000ff
face=3DArial =

size=3D2>sually light on the=20
soil.</DIV>
<DV><SPAN=20
class=3D320015420-30112001> </DIV>
<DVI>Last=20 week I found out I could kind
of brake’n’squid after a short downhill = leading=20 to big nice
public fire road in a downtown park. Too bad, I was = leaving
big=20 grooves on the humid soil. A more peaceful riding style
would never = ever lead=20 to that.</DIV>
<DVII><SPAN=20
class=3D320015420-30112001> </DIV>
<DVIII>On=20 the other hand, I would avoid
poaching trails (especially if you may = meet=20 rangers)
:)</DIV>
<DIX><SPAN=20
class=3D320015420-30112001> </DIV>
<DX><SPAN=20
class=3D320015420-30112001>Oli-</DIV>
<DXI><SPAN=20 class=3D320015420-3011-
2001> </DIV>
<DXII><FONT=20
color=3D#0000ff><snip> So
the logical =

conclusion I am drawing from my exerience, and from this thread, is =
that Muni=20 in general, is equal or less destructive than
walking/hiking. = Pound for=20 pound, this may always be the case
since hikers will always far = outnumber the=20 Muniacs.
 Joe = </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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system · November 30, 2001, 2:09pm

Tom Holub wrote:
> That’s a red herring. Horses reach lethally high speeds on narrow trails
> with zero sight distance, too. The issue with mountain bikes on trails
> is about control. It’s not about safety and it’s certainly not about
> erosion.

I don’t think that that is a fair assessment at all. I think that erosion
or the creation of huge mud patches is exactly the reason for the banning
of bikes. And I think that safety is certainly one of the reasons on more
populated trails.

BUT… I really think that SOMETIMES the older naturalist/conservationist
types just don’t like bikes. Mountain bikes in my opinion, aren’t OFTEN
ridden by conservationist minded individuals and so that image stands out.

Kind of the image that I have about Seadoos. :-7

Christopher

“Be Bold and mighty forces will come to your aid.” -Basil King (Anyone who
can give me more info on THIS Basil King please email
me.)

My small but growing site: http://home.earthlink.net/~crgrove/index.htm

If you are in the Ann Arbor/Ypsilanti, MI area check out my resume and if
you know of a company that fits me please let me know… Thanks!

system · November 30, 2001, 2:09pm

Tom Holub wrote:
> That’s a red herring. Horses reach lethally high speeds on narrow trails
> with zero sight distance, too. The issue with mountain bikes on trails
> is about control. It’s not about safety and it’s certainly not about
> erosion.

I don’t think that that is a fair assessment at all. I think that erosion
or the creation of huge mud patches is exactly the reason for the banning
of bikes. And I think that safety is certainly one of the reasons on more
populated trails.

BUT… I really think that SOMETIMES the older naturalist/conservationist
types just don’t like bikes. Mountain bikes in my opinion, aren’t OFTEN
ridden by conservationist minded individuals and so that image stands out.

Kind of the image that I have about Seadoos. :-7

Christopher

“Be Bold and mighty forces will come to your aid.” -Basil King (Anyone who
can give me more info on THIS Basil King please email
me.)

My small but growing site: http://home.earthlink.net/~crgrove/index.htm

If you are in the Ann Arbor/Ypsilanti, MI area check out my resume and if
you know of a company that fits me please let me know… Thanks!

system · November 30, 2001, 2:09pm

Tom Holub wrote:
> That’s a red herring. Horses reach lethally high speeds on narrow trails
> with zero sight distance, too. The issue with mountain bikes on trails
> is about control. It’s not about safety and it’s certainly not about
> erosion.

I don’t think that that is a fair assessment at all. I think that erosion
or the creation of huge mud patches is exactly the reason for the banning
of bikes. And I think that safety is certainly one of the reasons on more
populated trails.

BUT… I really think that SOMETIMES the older naturalist/conservationist
types just don’t like bikes. Mountain bikes in my opinion, aren’t OFTEN
ridden by conservationist minded individuals and so that image stands out.

Kind of the image that I have about Seadoos. :-7

Christopher

“Be Bold and mighty forces will come to your aid.” -Basil King (Anyone who
can give me more info on THIS Basil King please email
me.)

My small but growing site: http://home.earthlink.net/~crgrove/index.htm

If you are in the Ann Arbor/Ypsilanti, MI area check out my resume and if
you know of a company that fits me please let me know… Thanks!

system · December 1, 2001, 1:18am

On Fri, 30 Nov 2001 22:09:23 GMT, Christopher Grove
<c_r_grove@yahoo.com> wrote:

> I don’t think that that is a fair assessment at all. I think that
> erosion or the creation of huge mud patches is exactly the reason for
> the banning of bikes.

Every mud patch I come across on the trails I ride is a pock-marked mass
of hoof-prints, with (occasionally) the odd tyre-track towards the edge
(it’s more-or-less impossible to cycle or walk through the state horses
leave muddy ground). I’ve never understood why hoof-prints 8" deep don’t
count, but a shallow indentation that happens to be from a tyre is
suddenly environmentally damaging errosion.

regards, Ian SMith

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system · December 1, 2001, 1:18am

On Fri, 30 Nov 2001 22:09:23 GMT, Christopher Grove
<c_r_grove@yahoo.com> wrote:

> I don’t think that that is a fair assessment at all. I think that
> erosion or the creation of huge mud patches is exactly the reason for
> the banning of bikes.

Every mud patch I come across on the trails I ride is a pock-marked mass
of hoof-prints, with (occasionally) the odd tyre-track towards the edge
(it’s more-or-less impossible to cycle or walk through the state horses
leave muddy ground). I’ve never understood why hoof-prints 8" deep don’t
count, but a shallow indentation that happens to be from a tyre is
suddenly environmentally damaging errosion.

regards, Ian SMith

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|o o|
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