On the idling debate: I like idling. I’m not too good at it, but it’s classier than hopping. My brother is a muni guy, and almost never hops, can’t do any trials, etc. His main focus is rolling, and if he can’t roll it, he walks it. (there’s not to much he can’t roll, either. He was in our video rolling up a 6 set of stairs.) Anyway, he uses idling all the time for MUni, in cramped spots, whatever. He uses it to align his pedals for rolling hops, for aligning himself for things, regaining balance, etc. I contend Idling is a great MUni skill.
“Classier” is subjective. Actually, I was thinking it would be classier to use stoplights to learn standstills (or hop to standstill). Still, I have learned to use the other skills instead of idling. For example, if you have spin, you shouldn’t have to stop at the light in the first place. Spin through it or if you know you’re going to miss it, go to a slow roll. Not sure how well that works in New York traffic, but it’s worked for me in Austin and downtown Houston.
Idling in MUni? I admit that I have not seen it much. I think that “continuous rolling,” “gapping/rolling hops” have more value around these parts. On rough terrain, you’ll buy yourself a UPD - might work on 29" stuff. I simply don’t see a bunch (if any) idling - even by the guy that uses it during trials (and loves to do it). Didn’t see it at MOAB either - but I haven’t ridden with dozens of people on a huge variety of trails - so I am a bit short-sighted here.
I think you are missing the point.
- I am NOT saying to avoid learning to idle.
- I recognize that he’s on a 20" Sun
My point is that the skills I mentioned are more commonly used - and as a new/intermediate/advanced rider, he will GET MORE USE from them.
Why dump 10 hours in to learning to idle and go backwards prior to learning to spin and turn? Suggestions from freestyle-happy-people is why. I took that advice and found it was wrong. Contrarily, when I posed the same question to Kris Holm, R. Atkins and Dan Heaton, I got an answer more in-line with what I posted. (Shamefully, I still haven’t taken the time to do 10 miles of figure-8 to get better at turning (like Kris suggested - he told me to "learn to tearn really well), and it shows. But in jsm’s eyes, I may be cooler for having done 10 miles backwards in on ride before. I disagree.)
(As an aside, I think that idling looks more silly that hopping to standstill/stillstand - I guess because I associate it with “carnival types” and funny looking stuff like basketball (where there seems to be a lot of falling))
Anyway, we can simply agree to disagree. To support my position, I only ask the original poster to WATCH others ride - and determine what skills are “more important to work on” - from what he sees USED.
I guess we can agree to disagree on this, but I would like you to clarify one point; what do you mean my spinning? The proper spin is five full revolutions around a fixed point in an area smaller than one meter, and it’s difficult (level six). I could do backward wheel walk, seat drag, and downhill gliding before I could really spin properly. So what do you mean by spin?
I don’t think I said anything about learning to idle before learning to turn. Turning is the most fundamental skill, after riding and freemounting, so obviously you should learn it first.
Allow me to voice my whole hearted support for backwards riding and idling. Relatively speaking, I think I mastered both skills kind of quickly and can say that for all around balance, the backward and idling piece really furthers your progress as you work on different stuff.
Obviously, if you can’t turn well you probably shouldn’t work on your backwards riding. When I was first learning to ride I saw a guy downtown idling at a stoplight and since then I’ve viewed that as a demonstration of advanced unicycle competency. I would hazard a guess that idling sooner or later is interrelated with many of the advanced skills this thread discusses.
I want to echo a few things that I see as really informative and true to my experience. You will probably do a number on yourself when you try to learn to ride backwards. I read a good post months ago about a careful approach to backward riding that involved progressing one-half revolution at a time and trying to achieve a bit of balance each time. This cuts down on dangerous backward speed for the novice backward rider. Also, if you are thinking about riding backward and don’t have wrist protection, now is probably the time. A helmet, sure. Wrist protection, definitely.
That reminds me of another thing to keep in mind for all unicycling, but especially for learning backward riding. Keep your shoelaces tucked in or tied up tight. My only serious fall when learning backward riding occured when my shoelaces got tangled in the cranks, so I was unable to run out of the fall.
Re: Re: Re: Riding Backwards?
There were some people performing freestyle skills in the JuggleFest trials room and also outside.
I realize they were not competing in the trials competition at the time, but they are clearly skills that can be used “around other riders”.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Riding Backwards?
I put wheelwalking/gliding/coasting in a separate catagory.
The same guy that did the crank idle also idles with legs crossed and such. And, admittedly he was “around other riders.”
Perhaps you don’t see it, but there is a big “but” here . . . .
In the cycling community (in general) “spinning” means to pedal fast and smoothly. Speed. There are “spinning classes” on stationary bikes in gyms nowadays. (I wonder if that is a fad)
via JSM: I don’t think I said anything about learning to idle before learning to turn. Turning is the most fundamental skill, after riding and freemounting, so obviously you should learn it first.
Remember the original post?
via Moog: I’ve advanced to the level where I can go up and down fairly steep and long hills, stop for about a second and then get going again (though I can’t idle yet), I can’t do jumps and stuff, I’m practicing stopping with my pedals parallel to the ground to do that kind of stuff. My question is this: where do I go from here?
My answer is "learn to turn, develop your ability to go fast (learn to spin or “pedal good”) hop, gap, climb(pedal really good) skinnies(keep balance over the uni and pedal smoothly), spinning (pedal quickly to keep up with other riders).
All of the skills that I listed help the new rider get from point A to point B.
Think about it with the skills I listed, he can ride across a grass field, around in the city (hopping or gapping up onto curbs) or fit in with any style of rider that he’s around.
Of course the answer I oppose is “do a crank idle.”
Can’t see the logic there?
Choose to maintain that idling and backwards are more important than basic riding skills?
Hopefully, he and other riders will see the value in focusing on the fundamentals.
As I pointed out earlier, the videos that make most of us go “Wow!” all feature these fundamental skills. The beautiful journeys by aspenmike, to the record breaking of Gizmoduck . . . .wait, I wonder how many idles and . . . oh forget it. I remember the idling and backwards competition in MOAB 2004 - oh . . . there wasn’t one. You find it ironic that wheel walking, gliding, gapping and spinning (climbing and descending) were all featured?
Perhaps I should point out The COOLEST pics of 2005 thread. Let’s look at those “cool” photos . . . . last I checked every skill that I mentioned was featured - and backwards and idling were “left out.”
I guess if one wants to be “backwards, idle, or left out” he should work on it. :o
I post because I want to be clear.
I’m past trying to convince those with “backwards and idle minds” . . .
that there is folly in suggesting LEVEL 4 skills to a rider who is LEVEL 1 as the path best to travel immediately. 
For sake of fairness, allow me to present a “wow” factor video where idling and backward riding are very important, but gapping and climbing are not used at all. From John Foss’s website, This is Ryan Woessner, quite possibly the best unicyclist around. Lots of the experts use idling.
I agree that a beginning rider does not have to start work on idling immediately, but it could still be useful. Also, starting work on idling does not preclude the possibility of learning hopping, turning, and smooth riding. Although it is better to focus on those skills at first, it would still be a good idea to practice idling a five minutes a day. Because of the length of time it can take to learn it, it would be good to get a head-start.
It is not possible to fit in with “any style of rider” without idling. It’s a must for freestyle, basketball, and hockey, and those are certainly riding styles.
I know that I’m exaggerating a bit here, but when did “basketball” become a riding style?
Some would argue that tight turning and sprinting are enough to play hockey and basketball. Maybe not at the competition level - but definately for the rare and fun “pick up games” that exist today.
Moreover, there are numerous replacements for idling. I count stillstands, hopping to stillstand, hopping, tight turns, riding extremely slowly (skinny-like riding) or even . . . . . (God forbid) dismounting and getting back on.
Remember that thread about “which rider people wanted to be like”? I could be wrong, but I don’t think your Ryan was mentioned. Moreover, after seeing the videos of other competitors that didn’t fall off - I (and others watching) strongly questioned why he was deemed “the best.” Still I think he is a good rider and love that “1-foot wheelwalk with seat in back” that he did. Amazing.
Re: Riding Backwards?
“ChangingLINKS.com” <ChangingLINKS.com@NoEmail.Message.Poster.at.Unicyclist.com> writes:
> I’m simply
> “pro-skills-you’ll-actually-use-with-the-most-popular-riding-styles-today-and
> -around-other-riders.”
My problem is you go further than that! You ASSUME that offroad
riding styles are the most popular. I think you are failing to see
the light in two respects. First, I assert that offroad unicycling is
getting more press than other styles partly because it is developing
much more rapidly (as opposed to being more popular) and partly
because it is just so darned cool and accessible to spectators.
Second, and most important, in denying the validity of other styles,
you are settling for less that you deserve.
Let me explain this second point. I’ve been a rock climber for over
20 years. And in that time I have pursued several distinct styles of
climbing: Clean, sport, top rope, ice, mountaineering, bouldering,
solo (roped and freee) and more. Many climbers identify with one
style, and the result is that they either avoid other styles or get
less out of the experience than they could. I found that over time,
my interests would vary and I would switch focus from one style to
another, often seeing new possibilities in areas I had previously
neglected.
To me, true mastery of climbing involves appreciation of all aspects
of the sport along with a fine tuned perception of ones abilities.
This includes achieving a degree of control that lets you climb free
solo (where falling=death) and perceiving that this activity is little
different from walking a cliffside trail. But another aspect of the
mastery is being able to gain deep satisfaction from succes on a
risk-free top rope problem.
Now I have only been riding a few months longer than you, and I can
assure you that neither of us are anywhere near mastering unicycling,
but I am deeply convinced that a parallel exists between these sports,
and that rejecting particular styles as uninteresting and unimportant
is shortsighted.
Anyway, you dismiss idling as not useful, but tell me what you do when
you ride up to a mailbox to retrieve your letters. I’m not going to
be impresses if you dismount or bearhub the mailbox to keep upright.
I’ll laugh out loud if you hop (and hopefully your point in hopping
would be to make me laugh). Of course you might stillstand while
retrieving your mail. Send me a video of the latter and I promise to
never challenge you in this forum again!
But that’s just one example. Suppose you come to a red traffic light,
or have to stop to let pedestrians cross your path. Clearly you don’t
value participation in uni hockey or basketball. Juggling isn’t your
thing. You’ve already dismissed freestyle, but do you really think
people who can’t ride backwards or idle will have the skills to
advance doing street tricks?
Lastly, I’ll state my bias. If you can only ride forward and hop at a
stop, you’re missing half of unicycling*.
Ken
- To be fair, I don’t recommend riding backwards offroad without
serious skills and serious armor.
Re: Riding Backwards?
“onewheeljoe” <onewheeljoe@NoEmail.Message.Poster.at.Unicyclist.com> writes:
> Also, if you are thinking about riding backward and don’t have
> wrist protection, now is probably the time. A helmet, sure. Wrist
> protection, definitely.
I’ll add a recommendation for elbow pads. I managed to hit both
elbows hard enough I couldn’t rest them on a table for months. Hey -
backwards riding can improve your manners!
Ken
There should be no ‘arguements’ on whether a skill is ‘usefull’ or ‘needed’.
I new rider needs guidance.
Like learning anything, one should focus on a goal.
(like learning guitar, pick a song you want to play)
I’ve been riding for 35 years. Just to get around, and to see if I could still, ‘just do it’.
I’ve received renewed interest in my ‘novelty’ sport here in these forums. And it all started because I needed a new tire.
So now, after 35 years, I’m actually spending ‘the time’ to learn stuff I want to do, like idleing, and going backwards.
Because I:
- want to idle
- want to go backwards.
Re: Re: Riding Backwards?
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Ken Cline
ChangingLINKS: I’m simply “pro-skills-you’ll-actually-use-with-the-most-popular-riding-styles-today-and
-around-other-riders.”
Ken: My problem is you go further than that!
>> Sounds like a personal problem.
. You ASSUME that offroad riding styles are the most popular.
>> Nah. I know that there are more “freestyle” unicyclists than that of the other styles - (even more so if you count the multi-talented riders for each style they ride).
. in denying the validity of other styles,
you are settling for less that you deserve.
>> I was not denying the validity of freestyle - or any other style for that matter. I denied the validity of teaching a level 1 rider that he should start working on level 4 stuff because of some type of self-esteem problem.
. rejecting particular styles as uninteresting and unimportant is shortsighted.
Maybe. Maybe not. As humans we accept some things and reject others by nature. More importantly, I DON’T reject any style. I can idle. I can ride backwards. Rejection? I reject teaching level 1 riders to move on to level 4 skills immediately because of some sort of ego issue.
. you dismiss idling as not useful
>>> No. It’s useful. I’ve seen clowns and jugglers do it. More correctly, I pointed out alternatives.
. tell me what you do when
you ride up to a mailbox to retrieve your letters.
>>> LOL. OK, but first tell me how you have sex on an unicycle. Shower? Have a life? Bueller? Anyone? 
. I’m not going to be impresses if you dismount or bearhub the mailbox to keep upright.
>>> I sincerely state for the record: I don’t care to impress people who think it’s important to ride a unicycle while getting the mail.
. I promise to never challenge you in this forum again!
>>> I wasn’t aware that you posed a challenge. If you didn’t chime in, I’d be bored - notice all my posts today? It rained. Dammit! I could be “idling in the rain!” 
. Suppose you come to a red traffic light, or have to stop to let pedestrians cross your path.
>>> Let’s not go there. You’re not thinking much about the safety of others and yourself if you’re so worried about “busting a stylish idle” in dangerous situations. There are many alternatives that are safer, in more control and “cooler” including:
Being aware enough to slow down prior to reaching the intersection with an “extremely slow” roll.
Neo: You mean I’ll be able to dodge traffic lights?
Morpheous: No, Neo what I’m telling you is if you pay enough attention, and you won’t have to stop at traffic lights.
. Clearly you don’t value participation in uni hockey or basketball.
>>> Nope. Love 'em. Are you reading what I’m writing or just trying to define my position as illogical - like telling a level 1 rider to work on level 4 skills immediately because of some over-zealous lust for flatland unicycling?
. Juggling isn’t your thing.
>>> Correct. But, that doesn’t mean it’s not useful. I’ve seen clowns and jugglers do it.
. You’ve already dismissed freestyle, but do you really think
people who can’t ride backwards or idle will have the skills to advance doing street tricks?
>>> Yes. That goes for muni also. One of the best riders in this town (in my opinion) doesn’t idle or go backwards - but he trashes the trails heartily.
Lastly, I’ll state my bias. If you can only ride forward and hop at a stop, you’re missing half of unicycling*.
Ken
>>> I disagree. It’s definately more than half.
I’ll state my bias:
If you gotta resort to telling a level 1 rider to work on level 4 skills to boost your self-worth, I’d recommend sticking to other tatics 
What exactly are you accusing me of? Why would telling someone he should start work on idling boost my self-esteem? My reason for suggesting that a level one rider start learning idling (at the same time as hopping, etc.) is quite simple: it’s a very useful skill (as I demonstrated earlier, and as several others pointed out) and one every rider should know. It takes a long time to learn, but the sooner you start, the sooner you’ll get it. If you start practicing it when you are level one, and practice it ten minutes a day, you’ll get it sooner than if you wait till you are an expert MUni rider. If my reason for suggesting idling and backward riding was to promote freestyle riding over other styles, think again. Backward riding and idling aren’t just freestyle skills, they’re basic skills every rider should know. (as I said above) If I was just trying to promote freestyle riding, I would additionally have suggested one-footed riding, seat in front riding, and possibly even wheel walking. But I didn’t. Those are fundamental freestyle skills, and ones he could consider starting work on, (well maybe not ww) but they aren’t that useful for any other styles, so I didn’t go out of my way to promote them.
If you look back, you’ll see I didn’t originally even suggest he start working on idling. Mostly what I did was try to write something discouraging a total beginner from believing your ipsedixitism “Riding backwards and idling aren’t necessary. Most of us can go weeks without using either skill.”, and because of it not bothering to learn either skill ever.
You also are suggesting he start work on what is practically a level four skill. Hopping is level three, and gapping is certainly a good deal harder than basic hopping, so it’s reasonable to assume its difficulty level is on a par with most of the level four skills.
In summation, there’s nothing wrong with starting work on idling when you are level one, so long as you work on other skills as well.
It sounds like you’re suggesting to the original poster that he should only work on those skills which “look cool” to others. I don’t agree at all.
If he manages to perform a trick or skill that impresses other people, but he doesn’t enjoy doing it, then what’s the point? He’s not enjoying himself, so why did he bother with it? He’s not a circus entertainer out to impress an audience.
I suppose there are two motivating factors to learn a skill:
- You want to impress others.
- You enjoy learning or doing the skill.
I put myself in category (2). I enjoyed learning to idle and would do it again, even though I don’t use it very much now from a practical perspective. There was a certain inner satisfaction in mastering that skill.
It’s a lot of fun for me now since it feels like dancing. I don’t really care whether someone else is impressed by it or not. If I really cared that much, I suppose I would join the circus.
Dear Ken Cline:
We’ll have to start a club of climbers/unicyclists. The ranks seem to be growing daily, especially with Muni.
Per backward riding, I’m with Harper. Super idling is not only a good way to wire both idling and the initial part of backward riding, it’s a great balance exercise as well.
JL
Well, unfortunately, I don’t think the issue is muscles, I think the seat is chafing against my thighs… it doesn’t feel like muscle hurt, I only feel it on the cycle, and it only hurts when it rubs on the seat 
Is that usual?
What saddle do you have? Can you find a picture of it at Unicycle.com if you’re not sure of the brand?
There are some saddles that are bad for chafing, like the Savage saddles. You might have one of the bad saddles.