New Trials Unicycle Competition Format- IMPORTANT!!!

> However, I thought I’d just put the question out there: If a large
> effort was made to create an awesome course with tons of cool
> obstacles, how many people would rather push themselves (and push
> themselves hard) in a supportive social environment, where satisfaction
> comes from personal success? Does anyone feel that they would get
> anything more out of this if they were competing against other people?

I think that I would try to have as much fun as I could without
getting seriously hurt. I don't really care all that much if im
competing or not. I know that there are a lot of people that would
Smash me in a real competition. So I just do my best, be happy for
everything I do right, and don't Give a %#@! how well I do compared
to other people. Unless I do almost as good as somebody else, that
would be good.

-Max A Dingemans.

— Sarah Miller <sarah@vimes.u-net.com> wrote:
> Kris Holm <danger_uni@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > My opinion is that it is most simple to just credit a rider with bonus
> > points for “onsighting”
> the
> > problem first try, to use the climbing term. Trying a problem over and
> > over takes time. If a rider spends the whole competition trying one
> > thing over and over, they will not get as many points as if they just
> > gave up on the problem and did other problems that they succeeded at.
> > Counting how many tries a rider takes would be too complicated, in my
> > opinion.
>
> This is similar to the danish Uni obstacle race that was run at
> eurocycle two years ago. There were a seris of obstacles or sections in
> a circuit. If you failed an obstacle you could try it again to get the
> points or skip it to keep your time fast…

True- the main difference being that the time limit will allow plenty of
time for riders to try which ever obstacles they wish. There won’t be any
advantage to finishing sooner than anyone else.

-Kris.


Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only
$35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/

For me the idea of competing against others could put me off entering a
competition as it just doesn’t interest me in the slightest. There’s
always people better and worse than yourself in all things. So a non
competitive format would definitely get my vote.

It’s just an idea - I ain’t really thought it through though - but at the
moment there’s the 1-10 skill levels for artistic riding. Would there be a
way of using the trials format that’s being discussed but, instead of the
person with the most points being declared the winner, your score gives
you a level? This would still give individuals reason to go for it (to up
their own personal level) and take away the winner / loser thing. A kind
of getting yourself in to a group of similarly skilled people rather than
being better than x, y and z but worse than a, b and c.

A levels based system could also be good if / when unicycle trials becomes
ever more popular and some form of categorisation may be required. Just a
thought and, like I said, I ain’t thought through it at any length and
others might well prefer a competitive format.

Neil

----- Original Message ----- From: <danger_uni@yahoo.com> To:
<unicycling@winternet.com> Sent: Monday, June 04, 2001 7:12 PM Subject:
Re: New Trials Unicycle Competition Format- IMPORTANT!!!

> Carl,
>
> Just one thought: This is a maybe a a bit arguable because NUC is
> supposed to be the U.S. National competition, but I have one
> thought/question: How many people that like to do unicycle trials
> actually care whether they beat anyone in a competition format?
>
> Many sports, including many types of unicycling, depend on competition
> as an inherent part of the sport. There wouldn’t be much point to a
> tennis tournament or a track racing meet if there wasn’t some sort of
> competition involved. However, in some technical outdoor sports (e.g.
> climbing and mountaineering), the “competition” is primarily
> self-driven. Many/most of the best athletes in the world in these sports
> do not compete in a formal competition format. True, people have
> formulated competative events around these sports but the fact remains
> that the vast majority of people push themselves very hard in these
> sports for reasons that make person-to-person competition irrelevant.
>
> Competition does increase credibility of some sports in media circles.
> However, I thought I’d just put the question out there: If a large
> effort was made to create an awesome course with tons of cool obstacles,
> how many people would rather push themselves (and push themselves hard)
> in a supportive social environment, where satisfaction comes from
> personal success? Does anyone feel that they would get anything more out
> of this if they were competing against other people?
>
> This is a brand new sport. We can do anything we want with it. I’ll add
> my opinion: I’m just as stoked to see someone else succeed at something
> as when I do it. This isn’t lack of motivation- it’s a self-driven way
> of looking at things. I’m guessing that many other riders are in this
> category.
>
> -Kris.
>
>
>
> — Carl Hoyer <carl@mountainunicycling.com> wrote:
> >> Awesome! I LOVE IT!!
> >>
> >> I’m all for switching over to this new format for this years NUC. I
> >think it
> >> will definitely create a much better experience for everyone and
> >> really
> >help
> >> to foster the sport.
> >>
> >> I’ve got more to say on this subject and I’m definitely interested in
> >> helping to contribute ideas for formalizing and documenting the
> >> rules,
> >but
> >> I’ve had very little sleep in the past few days and must get rest.
> >>
> >> More from me soon. Great idea Kris!
> >>
> >> Carl
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: “Kris Holm” <danger_uni@yahoo.com>
> >> To: <unicycling@winternet.com>
> >> Cc: “John Foss” <john_foss@asinet.com>; “Robin Coope”
> >> <rcoope@physics.ubc.ca> Sent: Friday, June 01, 2001 12:56 PM
> >> Subject: New Trials Unicycle Competition Format- IMPORTANT!!!
> >>
> >>
> >> > Hi all,
> >> >
> >> > For all people who like uni-trials and may want to compete at some
> >point,
> >> please read this!!
> >> >
> >> > This is a proposal to completely change the competition format for
> >> unicycle trials. It’s a long
> >> > email- if you prefer the same text is located at <http://www.geog.-
> >> > ubc.ca/~kholm/New%20trials%20rules%20proposal.htm>
> >> >
> >> > Last year I wrote an IUF uni-trials rulebook that basically follows
> >the
> >> North American Bike Trials
> >> > competition format, with a couple of minor modifications. For those
> >of
> >> you that are unfamiliar
> >> > with conventional uni/bike trials competitions, here is a very
> >> > brief
> >> description:
> >> >
> >> > Three to six obstacle courses are laid out, called sections. Each
> >rider
> >> must attempt to negotiate
> >> > a section- if they fall or put a foot down (a “dab”) they are given
> >> penalty points. Riders do all
> >> > sections at least twice, and at the end of the day the person with
the
> >> least number of penalty
> >> > points is the winner.
> >> >
> >> > In my opinion, there are some significant problems with this
> >> > format:
> >> >
> >> > 1) It can be extremely boring!!! With such a low number of
> >> > sections,
> >you
> >> spend almost all your
> >> > time waiting around, not riding, while one person at a time goes
> >through a
> >> section.
> >> > 2) A system that penalizing failures (dabs) encourages an
> >> ultra-conservative, boring riding style.
> >> > Generally you ride way slower and more cautiously than normal,
> >because
> >> you are so afraid of
> >> > screwing up. This is stressful and not that exciting either.
> >> > 3) The conventional format encourages “strategic dabs” over hard
> >> obstacles. This is where the
> >> > rider intentionally puts their foot on an obstacle and lifts their
> >> unicycle over (or on to) the
> >> > obstacle. The rationale is that it is better to accept one penalty
> >point
> >> (one foot down) than to
> >> > completely wipe out and get 3 penalty points (in bike trials, 5
> >penalty
> >> points). To me this is
> >> > completely lame- it would be much better to encourage riders to "go
> >for
> >> it" instead of
> >> > intentionally not trying an obstacle.
> >> > 4) Putting long sections together can be difficult for the
> >> > organizer,
> >and
> >> requires lots of space
> >> > and many obstacles that only get used when one rider is in a
> >> > section
> >(see
> >> point # 1).
> >> > 5) It’s not natural. Most people don’t ride for fun this way- you
see
> >> something cool, and try it
> >> > over and over until you get it- the reward is success and
> >> > failure is
> >just
> >> something that happens
> >> > before success.
> >> >
> >> > Last night my roommate (who is a climber but not a unicyclist)
> >> > had a
> >> brilliant suggestion:
> >> > conduct unicycle trials competitions in a similar format to
bouldering
> >> competitions in rock
> >> > climbing. This is a proposed format, modelled after bouldering
> >> competitions:
> >> >
> >> > 1) The organizer lays out numerous obstacles, generally much
> >> > shorter
> >and
> >> simpler than conventional
> >> > sections. A good competition would contain lots of different
> >obstacles,
> >> of varying difficulty,
> >> > designed to test different trials skills. Each obstacle is
> >independent of
> >> all the others.
> >> > 2) The organizer gives each obstacle a point value, with harder
> >obstacles
> >> having a higher point
> >> > value. This requires judgement. In climbing, this works well
because
> >> there is a climbing rating
> >> > system that allows other climbers to (more or less) agree on how
> >difficult
> >> routes are. In
> >> > uni-trials this consensus would need to evolve over time as the
> >> > sport
> >> matures.
> >> > 3) To compete, riders complete as many problems as they can in a
> >specified
> >> time period. They can
> >> > go to any obstacle in any order, so there is much less waiting
> >> > around
> >(and
> >> it’s much more fun to
> >> > watch people try things).
> >> > 4) There would be bonus points for completing an obstacle first
> >> > try,
> >with
> >> no dabs. Otherwise you
> >> > could try the obstacle as many times as you wanted with no penalty
for
> >> failure. If there was a
> >> > lineup for the obstacle, you’d just have to go to the back of the
line
> >> after each attempt.
> >> > 5) At the end of the time period, the rider with the most points
> >> > wins
> >the
> >> competition.
> >> >
> >> > This format has the following major advantages over the current
setup:
> >> >
> >> > 1) It rewards success instead of penalizing failure, and promotes a
> >> “go-for-it” riding style that
> >> > will ultimately increase technical standards in the sport.
> >> > 2) The format is much closer to how we ride for fun and maximizes
> >riding
> >> time during a
> >> > competition.
> >> > 3) It is MUCH simpler in terms of rules than conventional bike or
> >unicycle
> >> trials, and course
> >> > set-up is much easier for the organizer.
> >> > 4) It is not necessary to set different sections for beginner,
> >> intermediate or advanced
> >> > categories. Everybody competes on the same course- the people in
> >> > the
> >> beginner category would just
> >> > be inclined to try easier problems than the people in more advanced
> >> categories
> >> > 5) It removes several ambiguities from the current format. For
> >example,
> >> if a rider wipes out, the
> >> > current unicycle trials rules stipulate that the rider remount
> >> > "where
> >the
> >> rider was last in
> >> > control". This can be a very grey area.
> >> > 6) This format could easily be self-judged by other riders, since
> >> > all
> >that
> >> is required is to
> >> > observe whether a rider successfully cleaned a short problem.
> >> > 7) It is way less stressful. Many riders (including myself) ride
> >because
> >> we’re self competitive,
> >> > not because we particularly care whether we beat anyone. This
> >> > format
> >> allows both casual and
> >> > highly competitive people to have fun on the same course.
> >> >
> >> > The only potential problem with this format is that it requires
> >experience
> >> and judgement to award
> >> > points for problems according their difficulty. However, this is
> >negated
> >> somewhat by riders
> >> > choosing to do problems that most efficiently gain them points.
> >> > If a
> >> problem seems to be overly
> >> > hard for the number of points awarded, the rider can just choose
> >> > not
> >to do
> >> that problem.
> >> >
> >> > Corresponding to this competition format, I’d like to also propose
> >that we
> >> create an open-ended "U
> >> > system" for rating unicycle trials problems. This would be similar
> >to the
> >> V-system used in
> >> > bouldering. For example, a hopping up a set of stairs would be
> >> > rated
> >U1,
> >> whereas the hardest
> >> > problems currently done might be around U7 or U8. This is NOT an
> >> objective system like levels
> >> > in artistic unicycling and would not correspond to specific moves
> >(since,
> >> like climbing, there is
> >> > infinitely variable terrain that offers varying types of
> >> > difficulty).
> > It
> >> would just provide a
> >> > mechanism to track how standards in uni-trials will evolve over
> >> > time.
> >> >
> >> > In Toronto at NUC, I think it would be great to try this system
> >> > out.
> >> Any thoughts, opinions,
> >> > comments?
> >> >
> >> > Regards,
> >> >
> >> > Kris Holm.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > __________________________________________________
> >> > Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail -
> >> > only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
> >> >
> >>
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only
> $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/

> Just one thought: This is a maybe a a bit arguable because NUC is
> supposed to be the U.S. National competition

When I read this I thought you were going to say something about how we
were outside the US border…

But actually, NUC is the US national “convention” and within that
convention we hold competitions. When we changed the name from “meet” to
“convention” a few years ago, the idea was to promote more than just a
schedule packed with competitive events. This has been slow in coming, but
I think progress is being made.

So along those lines, and in the interest of attracting unicyclists who
are not interested in competition only, I am always in favor of events
that are participation-based, rather than competitive. A unicycle chain, a
tour through downtown Toronto, group trail rides, these are
non-competitive events everybody enjoys and remembers.

> have one thought/question: How many people that like to do unicycle
> trials actually care whether they beat anyone in a competition format?

Of the handful of actual unicycle Trials people out there, I would guess
they aren’t that interested in competition. There is no precedent. Only a
small handful of Trials competitions have ever been held, and I don’t know
if anybody actually went to all of them. The sport is extremely new, and
even the activity is relatively new. I think the Uni-Verse video is still
making an impact on riders out there to turn them into Trials riders.

> Many sports, including many types of unicycling, depend on competition
> as an inherent part of the sport. There wouldn’t be much point to a
> tennis tournament or a track racing meet if there wasn’t some sort of
> competition involved.

The same is true for us. We have traditionally competed at our
get-togethers because that’s something we can’t do when we are apart.
Non-competitive Trials people don’t need to go to a convention to do
non-competitive Trials. But of course there will be lots of other Trials
riders there, so it should be very desirable to go, competition or no.

> fact remains that the vast majority of people push themselves very hard
> in these sports for reasons that make person-to-person competition
> irrelevant.

I think this is true of unicycling as well. You don’t learn to ride in the
first place without pushing yourself hard enough to learn the basics.

But what you are getting at is the nature of competitive sport and whether
we “need” to compete. Good question!

The MUni Weekends were originally set up to be a contrast to the NUC in
that they were non-competitive. The few competition events we have had
have deliberately not been taken too seriously, for fear of turning MUni
Weekend into a competition-dominated event. So there, we have competed for
fun. Sometimes we have been strict and regimented, such as with the Trials
competition at Santa Cruz, but mostly it has been very simple, like the
Confluence Uphill Race. Somebody wins, others don’t, but the prizes
usually don’t mean much anyway. We’re there to ride together and have a
good time.

I like this aspect of MUni, and look forward to seeing it in Toronto on
the non-competitive group rides that are scheduled. I had a lot of
non-competitive fun up in the Snoqualmie pass as well. 1998 and 2000
didn’t have enough time in the schedules to allow for anything but the
competitive events in there. Non-competitive events are easier to set up,
and probably even take less time.

But then there’s the flip side. The existence of competition makes people
try harder. Gives them a goal to strive for, or a result to try to improve
upon. It also provides a much better focus for media. If we can get them
to come and watch our sport, they will understand a competition better
than a bunch of people riding down a trail. Granted, no media person would
have any trouble being riveted on watching Kris jump between 100’ cliffs,
but there just aren’t that many Kris Holms.

So competition is also a way of building up a sport. And the logical
place to hold competitions is at the convention, where all the riders
are together.

> Competition does increase credibility of some sports in media circles.
> However, I thought I’d just put the question out there: If a large
> effort was made to create an awesome course with tons of cool obstacles,
> how many people would rather push themselves (and push themselves hard)
> in a supportive social environment, where satisfaction comes from
> personal success? Does anyone feel that they would get anything more out
> of this if they were competing against other people?

I have learned from experience that I will push myself harder in a
competition situation. But the question is why? Not for the medal. I
have a box full of those at home and they mean little to me anymore. And
not to see if I can do better than the other guy, though that is what’s
being measured.

I have to think back to the Trials competition in Snoqualmie. There was a
thunderstorm and lightning was actually striking in the parking lot.
Jacquie wanted to kill me later because I didn’t know lightning freaks her
out and she was waiting in the car for me to finish. But I had not got a
chance to ride the Trials course before, due to being busy with other
events. I was determined to complete it. Thanks to Kris and Geoff Faraghan
for staying out in the rain while I and a few others did. I had much more
satisfaction from having completed one of the world’s first-ever true
Trials competitions than the second place I won.

I did it to do it. But in my case the competition helps. In theory, the
course will be there whether or not it is done competitively. People who
don’t want to compete should have a chance to play on it after the
competition (nobody should before, I guess).

> This is a brand new sport. We can do anything we want with
> it. I’ll add my opinion: I’m just as stoked to see someone else succeed
> at something as when I do it.

Me too. But the same would be true even in a competition like this. It’s
not so much about who wins, but about who did their best. The competition
is always there for us to use it as we personally best see fit. Some just
want to win. Others just want to play. Sane people without Trials
unicycles or MUnis should just want to watch :slight_smile:

I favor a format that rewards participation and encourages people to have
a good time. In this case, I guess that would mean to keep it from getting
complicated. The simpler the event, the more fun it will be to participate
in.

Hope that’s useful, John Foss, the Uni-Cyclone jfoss@unicycling.com
www.unicycling.com

“Someone who thinks logically is a nice contrast to the real world.”

> Just one thought: This is a maybe a a bit arguable because NUC is
> supposed to be the U.S. National competition

When I read this I thought you were going to say something about how we
were outside the US border…

But actually, NUC is the US national “convention” and within that
convention we hold competitions. When we changed the name from “meet” to
“convention” a few years ago, the idea was to promote more than just a
schedule packed with competitive events. This has been slow in coming, but
I think progress is being made.

So along those lines, and in the interest of attracting unicyclists who
are not interested in competition only, I am always in favor of events
that are participation-based, rather than competitive. A unicycle chain, a
tour through downtown Toronto, group trail rides, these are
non-competitive events everybody enjoys and remembers.

> have one thought/question: How many people that like to do unicycle
> trials actually care whether they beat anyone in a competition format?

Of the handful of actual unicycle Trials people out there, I would guess
they aren’t that interested in competition. There is no precedent. Only a
small handful of Trials competitions have ever been held, and I don’t know
if anybody actually went to all of them. The sport is extremely new, and
even the activity is relatively new. I think the Uni-Verse video is still
making an impact on riders out there to turn them into Trials riders.

> Many sports, including many types of unicycling, depend on competition
> as an inherent part of the sport. There wouldn’t be much point to a
> tennis tournament or a track racing meet if there wasn’t some sort of
> competition involved.

The same is true for us. We have traditionally competed at our
get-togethers because that’s something we can’t do when we are apart.
Non-competitive Trials people don’t need to go to a convention to do
non-competitive Trials. But of course there will be lots of other Trials
riders there, so it should be very desirable to go, competition or no.

> fact remains that the vast majority of people push themselves very hard
> in these sports for reasons that make person-to-person competition
> irrelevant.

I think this is true of unicycling as well. You don’t learn to ride in the
first place without pushing yourself hard enough to learn the basics.

But what you are getting at is the nature of competitive sport and whether
we “need” to compete. Good question!

The MUni Weekends were originally set up to be a contrast to the NUC in
that they were non-competitive. The few competition events we have had
have deliberately not been taken too seriously, for fear of turning MUni
Weekend into a competition-dominated event. So there, we have competed for
fun. Sometimes we have been strict and regimented, such as with the Trials
competition at Santa Cruz, but mostly it has been very simple, like the
Confluence Uphill Race. Somebody wins, others don’t, but the prizes
usually don’t mean much anyway. We’re there to ride together and have a
good time.

I like this aspect of MUni, and look forward to seeing it in Toronto on
the non-competitive group rides that are scheduled. I had a lot of
non-competitive fun up in the Snoqualmie pass as well. 1998 and 2000
didn’t have enough time in the schedules to allow for anything but the
competitive events in there. Non-competitive events are easier to set up,
and probably even take less time.

But then there’s the flip side. The existence of competition makes people
try harder. Gives them a goal to strive for, or a result to try to improve
upon. It also provides a much better focus for media. If we can get them
to come and watch our sport, they will understand a competition better
than a bunch of people riding down a trail. Granted, no media person would
have any trouble being riveted on watching Kris jump between 100’ cliffs,
but there just aren’t that many Kris Holms.

So competition is also a way of building up a sport. And the logical
place to hold competitions is at the convention, where all the riders
are together.

> Competition does increase credibility of some sports in media circles.
> However, I thought I’d just put the question out there: If a large
> effort was made to create an awesome course with tons of cool obstacles,
> how many people would rather push themselves (and push themselves hard)
> in a supportive social environment, where satisfaction comes from
> personal success? Does anyone feel that they would get anything more out
> of this if they were competing against other people?

I have learned from experience that I will push myself harder in a
competition situation. But the question is why? Not for the medal. I
have a box full of those at home and they mean little to me anymore. And
not to see if I can do better than the other guy, though that is what’s
being measured.

I have to think back to the Trials competition in Snoqualmie. There was a
thunderstorm and lightning was actually striking in the parking lot.
Jacquie wanted to kill me later because I didn’t know lightning freaks her
out and she was waiting in the car for me to finish. But I had not got a
chance to ride the Trials course before, due to being busy with other
events. I was determined to complete it. Thanks to Kris and Geoff Faraghan
for staying out in the rain while I and a few others did. I had much more
satisfaction from having completed one of the world’s first-ever true
Trials competitions than the second place I won.

I did it to do it. But in my case the competition helps. In theory, the
course will be there whether or not it is done competitively. People who
don’t want to compete should have a chance to play on it after the
competition (nobody should before, I guess).

> This is a brand new sport. We can do anything we want with
> it. I’ll add my opinion: I’m just as stoked to see someone else succeed
> at something as when I do it.

Me too. But the same would be true even in a competition like this. It’s
not so much about who wins, but about who did their best. The competition
is always there for us to use it as we personally best see fit. Some just
want to win. Others just want to play. Sane people without Trials
unicycles or MUnis should just want to watch :slight_smile:

I favor a format that rewards participation and encourages people to have
a good time. In this case, I guess that would mean to keep it from getting
complicated. The simpler the event, the more fun it will be to participate
in.

Hope that’s useful, John Foss, the Uni-Cyclone jfoss@unicycling.com
www.unicycling.com

“Someone who thinks logically is a nice contrast to the real world.”

> Just one thought: This is a maybe a a bit arguable because NUC is
> supposed to be the U.S. National competition

When I read this I thought you were going to say something about how we
were outside the US border…

But actually, NUC is the US national “convention” and within that
convention we hold competitions. When we changed the name from “meet” to
“convention” a few years ago, the idea was to promote more than just a
schedule packed with competitive events. This has been slow in coming, but
I think progress is being made.

So along those lines, and in the interest of attracting unicyclists who
are not interested in competition only, I am always in favor of events
that are participation-based, rather than competitive. A unicycle chain, a
tour through downtown Toronto, group trail rides, these are
non-competitive events everybody enjoys and remembers.

> have one thought/question: How many people that like to do unicycle
> trials actually care whether they beat anyone in a competition format?

Of the handful of actual unicycle Trials people out there, I would guess
they aren’t that interested in competition. There is no precedent. Only a
small handful of Trials competitions have ever been held, and I don’t know
if anybody actually went to all of them. The sport is extremely new, and
even the activity is relatively new. I think the Uni-Verse video is still
making an impact on riders out there to turn them into Trials riders.

> Many sports, including many types of unicycling, depend on competition
> as an inherent part of the sport. There wouldn’t be much point to a
> tennis tournament or a track racing meet if there wasn’t some sort of
> competition involved.

The same is true for us. We have traditionally competed at our
get-togethers because that’s something we can’t do when we are apart.
Non-competitive Trials people don’t need to go to a convention to do
non-competitive Trials. But of course there will be lots of other Trials
riders there, so it should be very desirable to go, competition or no.

> fact remains that the vast majority of people push themselves very hard
> in these sports for reasons that make person-to-person competition
> irrelevant.

I think this is true of unicycling as well. You don’t learn to ride in the
first place without pushing yourself hard enough to learn the basics.

But what you are getting at is the nature of competitive sport and whether
we “need” to compete. Good question!

The MUni Weekends were originally set up to be a contrast to the NUC in
that they were non-competitive. The few competition events we have had
have deliberately not been taken too seriously, for fear of turning MUni
Weekend into a competition-dominated event. So there, we have competed for
fun. Sometimes we have been strict and regimented, such as with the Trials
competition at Santa Cruz, but mostly it has been very simple, like the
Confluence Uphill Race. Somebody wins, others don’t, but the prizes
usually don’t mean much anyway. We’re there to ride together and have a
good time.

I like this aspect of MUni, and look forward to seeing it in Toronto on
the non-competitive group rides that are scheduled. I had a lot of
non-competitive fun up in the Snoqualmie pass as well. 1998 and 2000
didn’t have enough time in the schedules to allow for anything but the
competitive events in there. Non-competitive events are easier to set up,
and probably even take less time.

But then there’s the flip side. The existence of competition makes people
try harder. Gives them a goal to strive for, or a result to try to improve
upon. It also provides a much better focus for media. If we can get them
to come and watch our sport, they will understand a competition better
than a bunch of people riding down a trail. Granted, no media person would
have any trouble being riveted on watching Kris jump between 100’ cliffs,
but there just aren’t that many Kris Holms.

So competition is also a way of building up a sport. And the logical
place to hold competitions is at the convention, where all the riders
are together.

> Competition does increase credibility of some sports in media circles.
> However, I thought I’d just put the question out there: If a large
> effort was made to create an awesome course with tons of cool obstacles,
> how many people would rather push themselves (and push themselves hard)
> in a supportive social environment, where satisfaction comes from
> personal success? Does anyone feel that they would get anything more out
> of this if they were competing against other people?

I have learned from experience that I will push myself harder in a
competition situation. But the question is why? Not for the medal. I
have a box full of those at home and they mean little to me anymore. And
not to see if I can do better than the other guy, though that is what’s
being measured.

I have to think back to the Trials competition in Snoqualmie. There was a
thunderstorm and lightning was actually striking in the parking lot.
Jacquie wanted to kill me later because I didn’t know lightning freaks her
out and she was waiting in the car for me to finish. But I had not got a
chance to ride the Trials course before, due to being busy with other
events. I was determined to complete it. Thanks to Kris and Geoff Faraghan
for staying out in the rain while I and a few others did. I had much more
satisfaction from having completed one of the world’s first-ever true
Trials competitions than the second place I won.

I did it to do it. But in my case the competition helps. In theory, the
course will be there whether or not it is done competitively. People who
don’t want to compete should have a chance to play on it after the
competition (nobody should before, I guess).

> This is a brand new sport. We can do anything we want with
> it. I’ll add my opinion: I’m just as stoked to see someone else succeed
> at something as when I do it.

Me too. But the same would be true even in a competition like this. It’s
not so much about who wins, but about who did their best. The competition
is always there for us to use it as we personally best see fit. Some just
want to win. Others just want to play. Sane people without Trials
unicycles or MUnis should just want to watch :slight_smile:

I favor a format that rewards participation and encourages people to have
a good time. In this case, I guess that would mean to keep it from getting
complicated. The simpler the event, the more fun it will be to participate
in.

Hope that’s useful, John Foss, the Uni-Cyclone jfoss@unicycling.com
www.unicycling.com

“Someone who thinks logically is a nice contrast to the real world.”

> Just one thought: This is a maybe a a bit arguable because NUC is
> supposed to be the U.S. National competition

When I read this I thought you were going to say something about how we
were outside the US border…

But actually, NUC is the US national “convention” and within that
convention we hold competitions. When we changed the name from “meet” to
“convention” a few years ago, the idea was to promote more than just a
schedule packed with competitive events. This has been slow in coming, but
I think progress is being made.

So along those lines, and in the interest of attracting unicyclists who
are not interested in competition only, I am always in favor of events
that are participation-based, rather than competitive. A unicycle chain, a
tour through downtown Toronto, group trail rides, these are
non-competitive events everybody enjoys and remembers.

> have one thought/question: How many people that like to do unicycle
> trials actually care whether they beat anyone in a competition format?

Of the handful of actual unicycle Trials people out there, I would guess
they aren’t that interested in competition. There is no precedent. Only a
small handful of Trials competitions have ever been held, and I don’t know
if anybody actually went to all of them. The sport is extremely new, and
even the activity is relatively new. I think the Uni-Verse video is still
making an impact on riders out there to turn them into Trials riders.

> Many sports, including many types of unicycling, depend on competition
> as an inherent part of the sport. There wouldn’t be much point to a
> tennis tournament or a track racing meet if there wasn’t some sort of
> competition involved.

The same is true for us. We have traditionally competed at our
get-togethers because that’s something we can’t do when we are apart.
Non-competitive Trials people don’t need to go to a convention to do
non-competitive Trials. But of course there will be lots of other Trials
riders there, so it should be very desirable to go, competition or no.

> fact remains that the vast majority of people push themselves very hard
> in these sports for reasons that make person-to-person competition
> irrelevant.

I think this is true of unicycling as well. You don’t learn to ride in the
first place without pushing yourself hard enough to learn the basics.

But what you are getting at is the nature of competitive sport and whether
we “need” to compete. Good question!

The MUni Weekends were originally set up to be a contrast to the NUC in
that they were non-competitive. The few competition events we have had
have deliberately not been taken too seriously, for fear of turning MUni
Weekend into a competition-dominated event. So there, we have competed for
fun. Sometimes we have been strict and regimented, such as with the Trials
competition at Santa Cruz, but mostly it has been very simple, like the
Confluence Uphill Race. Somebody wins, others don’t, but the prizes
usually don’t mean much anyway. We’re there to ride together and have a
good time.

I like this aspect of MUni, and look forward to seeing it in Toronto on
the non-competitive group rides that are scheduled. I had a lot of
non-competitive fun up in the Snoqualmie pass as well. 1998 and 2000
didn’t have enough time in the schedules to allow for anything but the
competitive events in there. Non-competitive events are easier to set up,
and probably even take less time.

But then there’s the flip side. The existence of competition makes people
try harder. Gives them a goal to strive for, or a result to try to improve
upon. It also provides a much better focus for media. If we can get them
to come and watch our sport, they will understand a competition better
than a bunch of people riding down a trail. Granted, no media person would
have any trouble being riveted on watching Kris jump between 100’ cliffs,
but there just aren’t that many Kris Holms.

So competition is also a way of building up a sport. And the logical
place to hold competitions is at the convention, where all the riders
are together.

> Competition does increase credibility of some sports in media circles.
> However, I thought I’d just put the question out there: If a large
> effort was made to create an awesome course with tons of cool obstacles,
> how many people would rather push themselves (and push themselves hard)
> in a supportive social environment, where satisfaction comes from
> personal success? Does anyone feel that they would get anything more out
> of this if they were competing against other people?

I have learned from experience that I will push myself harder in a
competition situation. But the question is why? Not for the medal. I
have a box full of those at home and they mean little to me anymore. And
not to see if I can do better than the other guy, though that is what’s
being measured.

I have to think back to the Trials competition in Snoqualmie. There was a
thunderstorm and lightning was actually striking in the parking lot.
Jacquie wanted to kill me later because I didn’t know lightning freaks her
out and she was waiting in the car for me to finish. But I had not got a
chance to ride the Trials course before, due to being busy with other
events. I was determined to complete it. Thanks to Kris and Geoff Faraghan
for staying out in the rain while I and a few others did. I had much more
satisfaction from having completed one of the world’s first-ever true
Trials competitions than the second place I won.

I did it to do it. But in my case the competition helps. In theory, the
course will be there whether or not it is done competitively. People who
don’t want to compete should have a chance to play on it after the
competition (nobody should before, I guess).

> This is a brand new sport. We can do anything we want with
> it. I’ll add my opinion: I’m just as stoked to see someone else succeed
> at something as when I do it.

Me too. But the same would be true even in a competition like this. It’s
not so much about who wins, but about who did their best. The competition
is always there for us to use it as we personally best see fit. Some just
want to win. Others just want to play. Sane people without Trials
unicycles or MUnis should just want to watch :slight_smile:

I favor a format that rewards participation and encourages people to have
a good time. In this case, I guess that would mean to keep it from getting
complicated. The simpler the event, the more fun it will be to participate
in.

Hope that’s useful, John Foss, the Uni-Cyclone jfoss@unicycling.com
www.unicycling.com

“Someone who thinks logically is a nice contrast to the real world.”

In a message dated 6/4/01 2:19:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
danger_uni@yahoo.com writes:

> Competition does increase credibility of some sports in media circles.
> However, I thought I’d just put the question out there: If a large
effort was made to create an
> awesome course with tons of cool obstacles, how many people would rather
push themselves (and
> push themselves hard) in a supportive social environment, where
satisfaction comes from personal
> success?

Sounds good to me! Sounds a lot more fun than competition. And it sounds
like what most of us do on a daily basis. I’m excited about going to NUC
for the first time, but I stopped being competitive a long time ago. I
just ride for the love of it.

I love the idea of just tackling whatever you feel comfortable with, and
I’m looking forward to learning from others at NUC. Seems to me
unicyclists are a pretty non-competive, self-driven bunch. It goes with
the turf. Most of us are lucky just to come into contact with other
unicyclists, and when we do, it’s typically to have fun in a club
atmosphere, not to compete.

I’m not against competition at all, I just like the idea of anything to
make a trials event more fun to watch and participate in.

I like the idea of skill levels - I’ve learned some skills I never would
have thought up on my own. But levels in trials seems harder to describe
and classify though.

Joe

— John Foss <john_foss@asinet.com> wrote:

[Issue: whether there needs to be competition in trials events] …But
then there’s the flip side. The existence of competition makes people
> try harder. Gives them a goal to strive for, or a result to try to
> improve upon. It also provides a much better focus for media.

OK this is true. However, I think that what really makes people try harder
is any kind of measurable standard. This can be a competition, or it can
be a rating system that measures the standard of difficulty. This is easy
to do for standard skills but it also works for trials too, I think. For
example, rock climbing has a grading system. When someone climbs something
new at a really high grade, it gets reported around the world. People that
need that external measure of success try hard because they want to climb
harder grades. At NUC I’d love to have a lot of different obstacles for
people to ride, and work out a consensus-based grading system. This would
satisfy those people that need to measure how hard they are riding,
without requiring a competative format.

-Kris.


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$35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/

Nycjoe@aol.com wrote: [regarding developing a grading system
for trials]

> I like the idea of skill levels - I’ve learned some skills I never would
> have thought up on my own. But levels in trials seems harder to describe
> and classify though.
>

True. There are no specific moves that are graded. However, with
experience riding lots of different types of terrain it is possible to get
a feeling as to how difficult certain moves are. This is true for various
outdoor sports such as ice climbing (Grade I to VI) , mixed ice/rock
climbing (M1 to M10), whitewater kayaking (Grade 1 to 6), rock climbing
(many international systems), etc. In trials uni you could state a few
well known moves as the definition of a certain grade, for example:

U1: hopping up stairs
U2: riding over a picnic table, from seat to top to seat and down.
U3: basic pedal grab directly to the table part of a picnic table.

etc…

People come from different backgrounds and are good at different things,
so some people will find some things “easy for the grade” that other
people find difficult for the same grade. That is natural; however it
still is useful when each individual gets a sense for how hard they can
ride, accounting for personal differences in skillsets.

-Kris.


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$35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/

> At NUC I’d love to have a lot of different obstacles for people to ride,
> and work out a consensus-based grading system. This would satisfy those
> people that need to measure how hard they are riding, without requiring
> a competative format.

I’m all for whatever you want to try. But I’ll emphasize that if we are
moving away from the current IUF Trials rules, it will be necessary to
formalize the rules that do get used. Or no rules. But I think we want to
have at least some form of organization there.

John Foss, the Uni-Cyclone jfoss@unicycling.com www.unicycling.com

“Someone who thinks logically is a nice contrast to the real world.”

> At NUC I’d love to have a lot of different obstacles for people to ride,
> and work out a consensus-based grading system. This would satisfy those
> people that need to measure how hard they are riding, without requiring
> a competative format.

I’m all for whatever you want to try. But I’ll emphasize that if we are
moving away from the current IUF Trials rules, it will be necessary to
formalize the rules that do get used. Or no rules. But I think we want to
have at least some form of organization there.

John Foss, the Uni-Cyclone jfoss@unicycling.com www.unicycling.com

“Someone who thinks logically is a nice contrast to the real world.”

> At NUC I’d love to have a lot of different obstacles for people to ride,
> and work out a consensus-based grading system. This would satisfy those
> people that need to measure how hard they are riding, without requiring
> a competative format.

I’m all for whatever you want to try. But I’ll emphasize that if we are
moving away from the current IUF Trials rules, it will be necessary to
formalize the rules that do get used. Or no rules. But I think we want to
have at least some form of organization there.

John Foss, the Uni-Cyclone jfoss@unicycling.com www.unicycling.com

“Someone who thinks logically is a nice contrast to the real world.”

> At NUC I’d love to have a lot of different obstacles for people to ride,
> and work out a consensus-based grading system. This would satisfy those
> people that need to measure how hard they are riding, without requiring
> a competative format.

I’m all for whatever you want to try. But I’ll emphasize that if we are
moving away from the current IUF Trials rules, it will be necessary to
formalize the rules that do get used. Or no rules. But I think we want to
have at least some form of organization there.

John Foss, the Uni-Cyclone jfoss@unicycling.com www.unicycling.com

“Someone who thinks logically is a nice contrast to the real world.”

Robin Coope wrote,

> author of the North American rules for Bike Trials. We are to some
> extent battling the same issue of trying to make contests more
> interesting. One thing that we have done is run dual speed trials, with
> two parallel sets of relatively easy obstacles that riders race on.
> Generally you don’t need to add dab penalties since dabs cost time
> anyway. Anyway, this format is fun for pro/experts, but it doesn’t work
> so well for beginners.

I saw this format in action at the Sea Otter Classic in March. The Speed
Trials competition drew a much bigger crowd than the standard Trials
competition did the year before. I have to remember, however, that the
weather last year was uncomfortable, with a strong wind blowing sand
around and making any non-active rider cold.

But Speed Trials was much more interesting to watch in any case. Great fun
to see Jeff Lenosky out there, and knowing most riders were going to get
wet once the beam across the water obstacle was wet. See pictures of all
this in my Santa Cruz/Sea Otter photo album, linked from this page:
http://www.unicycling.com/ofoto/muniphotos.htm

However, as Robin mentioned, this event was only for the most
skilled riders.

At a NUC, which is what we’re discussing at the moment, we must think in
terms of the riders present. It’s a full-range crowd of unicyclists, many
of whom have never attempted Trials. But they will try this if it is set
up where they have time and access to it. So we have to keep safety in
mind as a factor.

What I noticed at Sea Otter this year was that all the other Trials
courses (besides the Speed course) were much easier than last year. Even
Beau Hoover could ride much of it. Because Unicycle Trials is still so
new, it should be presented in a format that’s easily accessible for
people to try.

> For the math people out there, I’d say the parameter space has been
> insufficiently mapped in uni or bike trials. I wonder if you could have
> a large committee of riders go round the course and vote on the sections
> before the contest. You could have them rank the sections in order of
> difficulty, which would probably be more accurate than trying for
> absolute ratings.

That’s what I thought too. After some years of this, some more absolute
ratings could be developed.

> There are also non-climbing factors like whether or not it’s raining.

You mean that counts? Rain on obstacles would be even harder to quantify.
For these early days my inclination would be just to ignore it. If some
guys did the course before it started raining and you didn’t, too bad.

> 2. You might want to limit the number of attempts so as not to waste
> inordinate amounts of time. It could be set at five or ten or
> something. In biketrials in BC, we used to use the same format as
> now, but only count your best run out of two attempts. The idea was
> that it encouraged big attempts

Best of two tries is how we do some other unicycling events, like obstacle
course, slow races, coasting, gliding, and some forms of uphill. I like it
as a concept.

> but the downside was that it didn’t do a good job of ranking riders,
> since everyone would score mutiples of zero or five.

But it would not be scored that way, so this would not be an issue.

> I will put my mind to trying to do the same thing with bikes and seeing
> what happens.

That has GOT to be a first, the bike guys getting competition ideas
from us! Wow!

> Remember that whatever we do, the rules have to be reasonably simple, or
> you run into problems of the riders and spectators being severely
> confused.

True. And people can’t get into it as much if they don’t understand what’s
going on. Regular Bike Trials competition looks like a bunch of guys
hopping around on rocks. You can’t really see a difference between these
guys practicing over here, and those guys competing over there. That’s
something to think about too.

Robin, thanks for your input on our young sport!

Stay on top, John Foss, the Uni-Cyclone jfoss@unicycling.com
www.unicycling.com

“Someone who thinks logically is a nice contrast to the real world.”

Robin Coope wrote,

> author of the North American rules for Bike Trials. We are to some
> extent battling the same issue of trying to make contests more
> interesting. One thing that we have done is run dual speed trials, with
> two parallel sets of relatively easy obstacles that riders race on.
> Generally you don’t need to add dab penalties since dabs cost time
> anyway. Anyway, this format is fun for pro/experts, but it doesn’t work
> so well for beginners.

I saw this format in action at the Sea Otter Classic in March. The Speed
Trials competition drew a much bigger crowd than the standard Trials
competition did the year before. I have to remember, however, that the
weather last year was uncomfortable, with a strong wind blowing sand
around and making any non-active rider cold.

But Speed Trials was much more interesting to watch in any case. Great fun
to see Jeff Lenosky out there, and knowing most riders were going to get
wet once the beam across the water obstacle was wet. See pictures of all
this in my Santa Cruz/Sea Otter photo album, linked from this page:
http://www.unicycling.com/ofoto/muniphotos.htm

However, as Robin mentioned, this event was only for the most
skilled riders.

At a NUC, which is what we’re discussing at the moment, we must think in
terms of the riders present. It’s a full-range crowd of unicyclists, many
of whom have never attempted Trials. But they will try this if it is set
up where they have time and access to it. So we have to keep safety in
mind as a factor.

What I noticed at Sea Otter this year was that all the other Trials
courses (besides the Speed course) were much easier than last year. Even
Beau Hoover could ride much of it. Because Unicycle Trials is still so
new, it should be presented in a format that’s easily accessible for
people to try.

> For the math people out there, I’d say the parameter space has been
> insufficiently mapped in uni or bike trials. I wonder if you could have
> a large committee of riders go round the course and vote on the sections
> before the contest. You could have them rank the sections in order of
> difficulty, which would probably be more accurate than trying for
> absolute ratings.

That’s what I thought too. After some years of this, some more absolute
ratings could be developed.

> There are also non-climbing factors like whether or not it’s raining.

You mean that counts? Rain on obstacles would be even harder to quantify.
For these early days my inclination would be just to ignore it. If some
guys did the course before it started raining and you didn’t, too bad.

> 2. You might want to limit the number of attempts so as not to waste
> inordinate amounts of time. It could be set at five or ten or
> something. In biketrials in BC, we used to use the same format as
> now, but only count your best run out of two attempts. The idea was
> that it encouraged big attempts

Best of two tries is how we do some other unicycling events, like obstacle
course, slow races, coasting, gliding, and some forms of uphill. I like it
as a concept.

> but the downside was that it didn’t do a good job of ranking riders,
> since everyone would score mutiples of zero or five.

But it would not be scored that way, so this would not be an issue.

> I will put my mind to trying to do the same thing with bikes and seeing
> what happens.

That has GOT to be a first, the bike guys getting competition ideas
from us! Wow!

> Remember that whatever we do, the rules have to be reasonably simple, or
> you run into problems of the riders and spectators being severely
> confused.

True. And people can’t get into it as much if they don’t understand what’s
going on. Regular Bike Trials competition looks like a bunch of guys
hopping around on rocks. You can’t really see a difference between these
guys practicing over here, and those guys competing over there. That’s
something to think about too.

Robin, thanks for your input on our young sport!

Stay on top, John Foss, the Uni-Cyclone jfoss@unicycling.com
www.unicycling.com

“Someone who thinks logically is a nice contrast to the real world.”

Robin Coope wrote,

> author of the North American rules for Bike Trials. We are to some
> extent battling the same issue of trying to make contests more
> interesting. One thing that we have done is run dual speed trials, with
> two parallel sets of relatively easy obstacles that riders race on.
> Generally you don’t need to add dab penalties since dabs cost time
> anyway. Anyway, this format is fun for pro/experts, but it doesn’t work
> so well for beginners.

I saw this format in action at the Sea Otter Classic in March. The Speed
Trials competition drew a much bigger crowd than the standard Trials
competition did the year before. I have to remember, however, that the
weather last year was uncomfortable, with a strong wind blowing sand
around and making any non-active rider cold.

But Speed Trials was much more interesting to watch in any case. Great fun
to see Jeff Lenosky out there, and knowing most riders were going to get
wet once the beam across the water obstacle was wet. See pictures of all
this in my Santa Cruz/Sea Otter photo album, linked from this page:
http://www.unicycling.com/ofoto/muniphotos.htm

However, as Robin mentioned, this event was only for the most
skilled riders.

At a NUC, which is what we’re discussing at the moment, we must think in
terms of the riders present. It’s a full-range crowd of unicyclists, many
of whom have never attempted Trials. But they will try this if it is set
up where they have time and access to it. So we have to keep safety in
mind as a factor.

What I noticed at Sea Otter this year was that all the other Trials
courses (besides the Speed course) were much easier than last year. Even
Beau Hoover could ride much of it. Because Unicycle Trials is still so
new, it should be presented in a format that’s easily accessible for
people to try.

> For the math people out there, I’d say the parameter space has been
> insufficiently mapped in uni or bike trials. I wonder if you could have
> a large committee of riders go round the course and vote on the sections
> before the contest. You could have them rank the sections in order of
> difficulty, which would probably be more accurate than trying for
> absolute ratings.

That’s what I thought too. After some years of this, some more absolute
ratings could be developed.

> There are also non-climbing factors like whether or not it’s raining.

You mean that counts? Rain on obstacles would be even harder to quantify.
For these early days my inclination would be just to ignore it. If some
guys did the course before it started raining and you didn’t, too bad.

> 2. You might want to limit the number of attempts so as not to waste
> inordinate amounts of time. It could be set at five or ten or
> something. In biketrials in BC, we used to use the same format as
> now, but only count your best run out of two attempts. The idea was
> that it encouraged big attempts

Best of two tries is how we do some other unicycling events, like obstacle
course, slow races, coasting, gliding, and some forms of uphill. I like it
as a concept.

> but the downside was that it didn’t do a good job of ranking riders,
> since everyone would score mutiples of zero or five.

But it would not be scored that way, so this would not be an issue.

> I will put my mind to trying to do the same thing with bikes and seeing
> what happens.

That has GOT to be a first, the bike guys getting competition ideas
from us! Wow!

> Remember that whatever we do, the rules have to be reasonably simple, or
> you run into problems of the riders and spectators being severely
> confused.

True. And people can’t get into it as much if they don’t understand what’s
going on. Regular Bike Trials competition looks like a bunch of guys
hopping around on rocks. You can’t really see a difference between these
guys practicing over here, and those guys competing over there. That’s
something to think about too.

Robin, thanks for your input on our young sport!

Stay on top, John Foss, the Uni-Cyclone jfoss@unicycling.com
www.unicycling.com

“Someone who thinks logically is a nice contrast to the real world.”

Robin Coope wrote,

> author of the North American rules for Bike Trials. We are to some
> extent battling the same issue of trying to make contests more
> interesting. One thing that we have done is run dual speed trials, with
> two parallel sets of relatively easy obstacles that riders race on.
> Generally you don’t need to add dab penalties since dabs cost time
> anyway. Anyway, this format is fun for pro/experts, but it doesn’t work
> so well for beginners.

I saw this format in action at the Sea Otter Classic in March. The Speed
Trials competition drew a much bigger crowd than the standard Trials
competition did the year before. I have to remember, however, that the
weather last year was uncomfortable, with a strong wind blowing sand
around and making any non-active rider cold.

But Speed Trials was much more interesting to watch in any case. Great fun
to see Jeff Lenosky out there, and knowing most riders were going to get
wet once the beam across the water obstacle was wet. See pictures of all
this in my Santa Cruz/Sea Otter photo album, linked from this page:
http://www.unicycling.com/ofoto/muniphotos.htm

However, as Robin mentioned, this event was only for the most
skilled riders.

At a NUC, which is what we’re discussing at the moment, we must think in
terms of the riders present. It’s a full-range crowd of unicyclists, many
of whom have never attempted Trials. But they will try this if it is set
up where they have time and access to it. So we have to keep safety in
mind as a factor.

What I noticed at Sea Otter this year was that all the other Trials
courses (besides the Speed course) were much easier than last year. Even
Beau Hoover could ride much of it. Because Unicycle Trials is still so
new, it should be presented in a format that’s easily accessible for
people to try.

> For the math people out there, I’d say the parameter space has been
> insufficiently mapped in uni or bike trials. I wonder if you could have
> a large committee of riders go round the course and vote on the sections
> before the contest. You could have them rank the sections in order of
> difficulty, which would probably be more accurate than trying for
> absolute ratings.

That’s what I thought too. After some years of this, some more absolute
ratings could be developed.

> There are also non-climbing factors like whether or not it’s raining.

You mean that counts? Rain on obstacles would be even harder to quantify.
For these early days my inclination would be just to ignore it. If some
guys did the course before it started raining and you didn’t, too bad.

> 2. You might want to limit the number of attempts so as not to waste
> inordinate amounts of time. It could be set at five or ten or
> something. In biketrials in BC, we used to use the same format as
> now, but only count your best run out of two attempts. The idea was
> that it encouraged big attempts

Best of two tries is how we do some other unicycling events, like obstacle
course, slow races, coasting, gliding, and some forms of uphill. I like it
as a concept.

> but the downside was that it didn’t do a good job of ranking riders,
> since everyone would score mutiples of zero or five.

But it would not be scored that way, so this would not be an issue.

> I will put my mind to trying to do the same thing with bikes and seeing
> what happens.

That has GOT to be a first, the bike guys getting competition ideas
from us! Wow!

> Remember that whatever we do, the rules have to be reasonably simple, or
> you run into problems of the riders and spectators being severely
> confused.

True. And people can’t get into it as much if they don’t understand what’s
going on. Regular Bike Trials competition looks like a bunch of guys
hopping around on rocks. You can’t really see a difference between these
guys practicing over here, and those guys competing over there. That’s
something to think about too.

Robin, thanks for your input on our young sport!

Stay on top, John Foss, the Uni-Cyclone jfoss@unicycling.com
www.unicycling.com

“Someone who thinks logically is a nice contrast to the real world.”

Kris,

> Just one thought: This is a maybe a a bit arguable because NUC is
> supposed to be the U.S. National competition, but I have one
> thought/question: How many people that like to do unicycle trials
> actually care whether they beat anyone in a competition format?

Well, I can speak for myself. I’ve been in competitive sports for quite
some time. First it was competitive swimming for many many years and more
recently cross-country mountain biking. It’s never ever been about winning
for me. It’s always been … go out, enjoy yourself, do the best you can
and try to better your previous attempts. I really don’t mind coming in
last so long as I know I put 100% effort into it and that I had fun.

However, having said that, I do also agree with John’s comment:

> I have learned from experience that I will push myself harder in a
> competition situation.

I too find this to be true with myself … perhaps not always, but the
majority of the time the pressure from the expectation to succeed (or even
the desire to succeed) lead to better results (results meaning sticking a
new trick or bettering oneself, not necessarily placing high up). So, how
exactly does one hold event that awards the people who push themselves the
most yet doesn’t turn into a super competitive battle for top spot?

I think a partial answer lies in the attitudes of the participants. I
believe, for the most part, that a fairly small tight knit group of people
who share a common interest are less likely to argue over the nit-picky
details of a particular rule or action than a large group of people who
barely know each other. Many sports that become popular also have large
participant bases in which the overall community feeling gets lost, which
leads people to start focussing more on the sport rather than the social
and cummunity aspects.

> Competition does increase credibility of some sports in media circles.

That it does. I feel it’s somewhat unfortunate that the majority of media
feel that it’s only news worthy for the majority of the population base
if someone is awarded something. It’s societies fascination with the
number one.

> However, I thought I’d just put the question out there: If a large
> effort was made to create an awesome course with tons of cool
obstacles,
> how many people would rather push themselves (and push themselves
hard) in a
> supportive social environment, where satisfaction comes from personal
success?
> Does anyone feel that they would get anything more out of this if they
were
> competing against other people?

I always expected the supportive social environment to be there at the NUC
even with the current IUF Uni Trials rules simply because it’s going to be
a relatively small participate base and the majority of the people know
each other to some degree. This lends very well to an event where the
focus isn’t on the competition but on personal success.

What I like about the new proposed format is that the basis is simple and
won’t require excess paper to communicate. I realize alot still needs to
get worked out and agreed upon (and in a short period if we are going to
use this for this years NUC), but the basic foundation is excellent.
Perhaps it’s because I dabble in rock climbing and really wish I had
gotten into it much more. :slight_smile:

I’m am completely open to redefining the trials rules for the NUC
providing the majority of the trials community aggrees to them and it’s
well communicated (as John points out). The latter shouldn’t be much of a
problem in today’s world.

What would you think if a tentitive cutoff date of July 1st was set for
getting a reasonable version (meaning that at very least major points are
agreed upon and well documented. Obviously small revisions and level
categorization will still be edited for quite some time as the sport
evolves) of the event format together? This would leave 2 and a bit weeks
for people to digest prior to the NUC.

Again, I offer all the support I have to give to get this going for the
NUC.

Carl

----- Original Message ----- From: “Kris Holm” <danger_uni@yahoo.com> To:
<unicycling@winternet.com> Sent: Monday, June 04, 2001 2:12 PM Subject:
Re: New Trials Unicycle Competition Format- IMPORTANT!!!

> Carl,
>
> Just one thought: This is a maybe a a bit arguable because NUC is
supposed to be the U.S.
> National competition, but I have one thought/question: How many
people that like to do unicycle
> trials actually care whether they beat anyone in a competition format?
>
> Many sports, including many types of unicycling, depend on competition
as an inherent part of the
> sport. There wouldn’t be much point to a tennis tournament or a track
racing meet if there wasn’t
> some sort of competition involved. However, in some technical outdoor
sports (e.g. climbing and
> mountaineering), the “competition” is primarily self-driven.
Many/most of the best athletes in
> the world in these sports do not compete in a formal competition
format. True, people have
> formulated competative events around these sports but the fact remains
that the vast majority of
> people push themselves very hard in these sports for reasons that make
person-to-person
> competition irrelevant.
>
> Competition does increase credibility of some sports in media circles.
However, I thought I’d
> just put the question out there: If a large effort was made to create
an awesome course with tons
> of cool obstacles, how many people would rather push themselves (and
push themselves hard) in a
> supportive social environment, where satisfaction comes from personal
success? Does anyone feel
> that they would get anything more out of this if they were competing
against other people?
>
> This is a brand new sport. We can do anything we want with it. I’ll
add my opinion: I’m just as
> stoked to see someone else succeed at something as when I do it. This
isn’t lack of motivation-
> it’s a self-driven way of looking at things. I’m guessing that many
other riders are in this
> category.
>
> -Kris.
>
>
>
> — Carl Hoyer <carl@mountainunicycling.com> wrote:
> > Awesome! I LOVE IT!!
> >
> > I’m all for switching over to this new format for this years NUC. I
think it
> > will definitely create a much better experience for everyone and
really help
> > to foster the sport.
> >
> > I’ve got more to say on this subject and I’m definitely interested
in
> > helping to contribute ideas for formalizing and documenting the
rules, but
> > I’ve had very little sleep in the past few days and must get rest.
> >
> > More from me soon. Great idea Kris!
> >
> > Carl
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----- From: “Kris Holm” <danger_uni@yahoo.com>
> > To: <unicycling@winternet.com>
> > Cc: “John Foss” <john_foss@asinet.com>; “Robin Coope”
> > <rcoope@physics.ubc.ca> Sent: Friday, June 01, 2001 12:56 PM
> > Subject: New Trials Unicycle Competition Format- IMPORTANT!!!
> >
> >
> > > Hi all,
> > >
> > > For all people who like uni-trials and may want to compete at some
point,
> > please read this!!
> > >
> > > This is a proposal to completely change the competition format for
> > unicycle trials. It’s a long
> > > email- if you prefer the same text is located at
> > >
<http://www.geog.ubc.ca/~kholm/New%20trials%20rules%20proposal.htm>
> > >
> > > Last year I wrote an IUF uni-trials rulebook that basically
follows the
> > North American Bike Trials
> > > competition format, with a couple of minor modifications. For
those of
> > you that are unfamiliar
> > > with conventional uni/bike trials competitions, here is a very
brief
> > description:
> > >
> > > Three to six obstacle courses are laid out, called sections. Each
rider
> > must attempt to negotiate
> > > a section- if they fall or put a foot down (a “dab”) they are
given
> > penalty points. Riders do all
> > > sections at least twice, and at the end of the day the person with
the
> > least number of penalty
> > > points is the winner.
> > >
> > > In my opinion, there are some significant problems with this
format:
> > >
> > > 1) It can be extremely boring!!! With such a low number of
sections, you
> > spend almost all your
> > > time waiting around, not riding, while one person at a time goes
through a
> > section.
> > > 2) A system that penalizing failures (dabs) encourages an
> > ultra-conservative, boring riding style.
> > > Generally you ride way slower and more cautiously than normal,
because
> > you are so afraid of
> > > screwing up. This is stressful and not that exciting either.
> > > 3) The conventional format encourages “strategic dabs” over hard
> > obstacles. This is where the
> > > rider intentionally puts their foot on an obstacle and lifts their
> > unicycle over (or on to) the
> > > obstacle. The rationale is that it is better to accept one
penalty point
> > (one foot down) than to
> > > completely wipe out and get 3 penalty points (in bike trials, 5
penalty
> > points). To me this is
> > > completely lame- it would be much better to encourage riders to
"go for
> > it" instead of
> > > intentionally not trying an obstacle.
> > > 4) Putting long sections together can be difficult for the
organizer, and
> > requires lots of space
> > > and many obstacles that only get used when one rider is in a
section (see
> > point # 1).
> > > 5) It’s not natural. Most people don’t ride for fun this way- you
see
> > something cool, and try it
> > > over and over until you get it- the reward is success and failure
is just
> > something that happens
> > > before success.
> > >
> > > Last night my roommate (who is a climber but not a unicyclist) had
a
> > brilliant suggestion:
> > > conduct unicycle trials competitions in a similar format to
bouldering
> > competitions in rock
> > > climbing. This is a proposed format, modelled after bouldering
> > competitions:
> > >
> > > 1) The organizer lays out numerous obstacles, generally much
shorter and
> > simpler than conventional
> > > sections. A good competition would contain lots of different
obstacles,
> > of varying difficulty,
> > > designed to test different trials skills. Each obstacle is
independent of
> > all the others.
> > > 2) The organizer gives each obstacle a point value, with harder
obstacles
> > having a higher point
> > > value. This requires judgement. In climbing, this works well
because
> > there is a climbing rating
> > > system that allows other climbers to (more or less) agree on how
difficult
> > routes are. In
> > > uni-trials this consensus would need to evolve over time as the
sport
> > matures.
> > > 3) To compete, riders complete as many problems as they can in a
specified
> > time period. They can
> > > go to any obstacle in any order, so there is much less waiting
around (and
> > it’s much more fun to
> > > watch people try things).
> > > 4) There would be bonus points for completing an obstacle first
try, with
> > no dabs. Otherwise you
> > > could try the obstacle as many times as you wanted with no penalty
for
> > failure. If there was a
> > > lineup for the obstacle, you’d just have to go to the back of the
line
> > after each attempt.
> > > 5) At the end of the time period, the rider with the most points
wins the
> > competition.
> > >
> > > This format has the following major advantages over the current
setup:
> > >
> > > 1) It rewards success instead of penalizing failure, and promotes
a
> > “go-for-it” riding style that
> > > will ultimately increase technical standards in the sport.
> > > 2) The format is much closer to how we ride for fun and maximizes
riding
> > time during a
> > > competition.
> > > 3) It is MUCH simpler in terms of rules than conventional bike or
unicycle
> > trials, and course
> > > set-up is much easier for the organizer.
> > > 4) It is not necessary to set different sections for beginner,
> > intermediate or advanced
> > > categories. Everybody competes on the same course- the people in
the
> > beginner category would just
> > > be inclined to try easier problems than the people in more
advanced
> > categories
> > > 5) It removes several ambiguities from the current format. For
example,
> > if a rider wipes out, the
> > > current unicycle trials rules stipulate that the rider remount
"where the
> > rider was last in
> > > control". This can be a very grey area.
> > > 6) This format could easily be self-judged by other riders, since
all that
> > is required is to
> > > observe whether a rider successfully cleaned a short problem.
> > > 7) It is way less stressful. Many riders (including myself) ride
because
> > we’re self competitive,
> > > not because we particularly care whether we beat anyone. This
format
> > allows both casual and
> > > highly competitive people to have fun on the same course.
> > >
> > > The only potential problem with this format is that it requires
experience
> > and judgement to award
> > > points for problems according their difficulty. However, this is
negated
> > somewhat by riders
> > > choosing to do problems that most efficiently gain them points.
If a
> > problem seems to be overly
> > > hard for the number of points awarded, the rider can just choose
not to do
> > that problem.
> > >
> > > Corresponding to this competition format, I’d like to also propose
that we
> > create an open-ended "U
> > > system" for rating unicycle trials problems. This would be
similar to the
> > V-system used in
> > > bouldering. For example, a hopping up a set of stairs would be
rated U1,
> > whereas the hardest
> > > problems currently done might be around U7 or U8. This is NOT
an
> > objective system like levels
> > > in artistic unicycling and would not correspond to specific moves
(since,
> > like climbing, there is
> > > infinitely variable terrain that offers varying types of
difficulty). It
> > would just provide a
> > > mechanism to track how standards in uni-trials will evolve over
time.
> > >
> > > In Toronto at NUC, I think it would be great to try this system
out.
> > Any thoughts, opinions,
> > > comments?
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > >
> > > Kris Holm.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > __________________________________________________
> > > Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail -
> > > only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
> > >
> >
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only
> $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/

The first time I saw the dual format run was in the video Revolution and
then in person at last years Outdoor Adventure Show here in Ontario. If I
remember correct Ryan Leech was there and seemed to be one of the
principal organizers of the trials event.

The crowds were pretty unbelievable. It’s amazing to see how crazy the
crowd goes when you put two people (or more) head to head. This does
however lean more towards the competitive side. But I suppose it’s no
diferent than dual speed climbing events.

I think a dual uni trials event could probably be pulled off at this years
NUC. Despite the fact that the skill level of the participants leans
towards the higher side … I believe it’s all relative. One could simply
use ‘easier’ obstacles. The trick is finding two identical obstacles.

Having said all that I’m not promising that a dual uni trials event will
take place at the NUC. We’ll see …

Carl

Robin, tell us when you’ve heard enough of this unicycle stuff :slight_smile:

----- Original Message ----- From: “John Foss” <john_foss@asinet.com> To:
“‘Robin Coope’” <rcoope@physics.ubc.ca>
Cc: <unicycling@winternet.com> Sent: Monday, June 04, 2001 6:31 PM
Subject: RE: New Trials Unicycle Competition Format- IMPORTANT!!!

> Robin Coope wrote,
>
> > author of the North American rules for Bike Trials. We are to some
> > extent battling the same issue of trying to make contests more
> > interesting. One thing that we have done is run dual speed trials,
> > with two parallel sets of relatively easy obstacles that riders race
> > on. Generally you don’t need to add dab penalties since dabs cost time
> > anyway. Anyway, this format is fun for pro/experts, but it doesn’t
> > work so well for beginners.
>
> I saw this format in action at the Sea Otter Classic in March. The
Speed
> Trials competition drew a much bigger crowd than the standard Trials
> competition did the year before. I have to remember, however, that the
> weather last year was uncomfortable, with a strong wind blowing sand
around
> and making any non-active rider cold.
>
> But Speed Trials was much more interesting to watch in any case. Great
fun
> to see Jeff Lenosky out there, and knowing most riders were going to
get wet
> once the beam across the water obstacle was wet. See pictures of all
this in
> my Santa Cruz/Sea Otter photo album, linked from this page:
> http://www.unicycling.com/ofoto/muniphotos.htm
>
> However, as Robin mentioned, this event was only for the most
> skilled riders.
>
> At a NUC, which is what we’re discussing at the moment, we must think
in
> terms of the riders present. It’s a full-range crowd of unicyclists,
many of
> whom have never attempted Trials. But they will try this if it is set
up
> where they have time and access to it. So we have to keep safety in
mind as
> a factor.
>
> What I noticed at Sea Otter this year was that all the other Trials
courses
> (besides the Speed course) were much easier than last year. Even Beau
Hoover
> could ride much of it. Because Unicycle Trials is still so new, it
should be
> presented in a format that’s easily accessible for people to try.
>
> > For the math people out there, I’d say the parameter space has been
> > insufficiently mapped in uni or bike trials. I wonder if you could
> > have a large committee of riders go round the course and vote on the
> > sections before the contest. You could have them rank the sections in
> > order of difficulty, which would probably be more accurate than trying
> > for absolute ratings.
>
> That’s what I thought too. After some years of this, some more
absolute
> ratings could be developed.
>
> > There are also non-climbing factors like whether or not it’s raining.
>
> You mean that counts? Rain on obstacles would be even harder to
quantify.
> For these early days my inclination would be just to ignore it. If
some guys
> did the course before it started raining and you didn’t, too bad.
>
> > 2. You might want to limit the number of attempts so as not to waste
> > inordinate amounts of time. It could be set at five or ten or
> > something. In biketrials in BC, we used to use the same format as
> > now, but only count your best run out of two attempts. The idea was
> > that it encouraged big attempts
>
> Best of two tries is how we do some other unicycling events, like
obstacle
> course, slow races, coasting, gliding, and some forms of uphill. I
like it
> as a concept.
>
> > but the downside was that it didn’t do a good job of ranking riders,
> > since everyone would score mutiples of zero or five.
>
> But it would not be scored that way, so this would not be an issue.
>
> > I will put my mind to trying to do the same thing with bikes and
> > seeing what happens.
>
> That has GOT to be a first, the bike guys getting competition ideas
from us!
> Wow!
>
> > Remember that whatever we do, the rules have to be reasonably simple,
> > or you run into problems of the riders and spectators being severely
> > confused.
>
> True. And people can’t get into it as much if they don’t understand
what’s
> going on. Regular Bike Trials competition looks like a bunch of guys
hopping
> around on rocks. You can’t really see a difference between these guys
> practicing over here, and those guys competing over there. That’s
something
> to think about too.
>
> Robin, thanks for your input on our young sport!
>
> Stay on top, John Foss, the Uni-Cyclone jfoss@unicycling.com
> www.unicycling.com
>
>
> “Someone who thinks logically is a nice contrast to the real world.”