MLK Day--observations

Off-topic
1

So we have given history’s greatest Civil Rights leader a day, when in his honor, government shuts down.

I think we can do better. The problem that Martin Luther King died for is still a problem. Oh, blatant racism is no longer socially acceptable and telling racial jokes will get you quickly ostracized from polite company. But racism is still alive and well, and equal rights, where they exist at all, exist in many cases because some law is forcing equal rights to exist.

I grew up in Memphis. I was 6 years old when MLK was killed. I remember even as a 6 year old wondering why white people and black people couldn’t get along.

I remember at age 18 (1979) hearing the word “nigger” used in a church business meeting–not as an insult, just as a way to refer to the church janitor. “Let that nigger do it,” I believe was the exact phrase the white-haired lady used. No one seemed to mind.

Now, 2006, as a pastor I serve a mostly white congregation and 2 small African immigrant congregations. The two African congregations meet in our building, we support them financially, and I train their leaders. And I can tell you that racism is alive and well in Minnesota. I deal weekly with people who think the Africans have no business using “our” building (We call it “God’s House” until that becomes inconvenient. Then it is no longer God’s house, but “our” house). They go out of their way to find reasons the Africans shouldn’t be here.

In honor of MLK, I would like to see more than a day off. I would like to see us call racism racism. I would like for people to go out of their way to find commonality between races rather than differences.

And I would like the government to back to work.

2

Happy Birthday, Martin! Great post, Jethro. :slight_smile:

3

jethro what church are you a pastor at?

4

I’ll PM you

5

Preach it brother.
And I use the term ‘preach’ advisedly, but you know that.

I can’t help but find it kinda sad that this thread gets hardly any response.
Do I have to quote some of Gore’s speech before this kind of thing gets ‘meaty’ enough to warrant comment/discussion?

I was freaked out when I received an SMS/Text Message on New Year’s Eve from a friend wishing that ‘our friendship grows like black people’s love for our possesions’.
Not bloody likely, bub. But that’s another discussion.

Any other examples of still extant racism in everyday life?

6

I started a response, but I found that what I was writing about “religious” people was getting somewhat angry, and dangerously close to the type of generalizations that I can’t stand. Maybe a day later is sufficient time to reflect more calmly.

What I find sad is that racism is still so pervasive. Maybe not the “separate drinking fountain” kind of racism that existed as recently as when I was born (which, in itself, is just astounding to me), but the more subtle kind that’s everywhere, in the U.S. as well as most other countries.

I was at a New Year’s party with some neighbors. There was a man there who I know, who’s come to see me in several of the stage plays that I’ve been in. Generally a nice enough guy. Somebody mentioned something about day laborers, and he responded with a comment about “beaners.” He used the word twice.

Now, I learned a long time ago that there are certain people whose minds you aren’t going to change. I never argued with my grandfather about race issues – about ANY issues, really – because I knew I wouldn’t win, the argument would just cause bad feelings within the family. Being at a mutual friend’s house with a friendly party going on didn’t feel like the right place to discuss an issue with someone who, I’m sure, didn’t want to discuss it.

A few days later, I was walking the dog, and this guy was out talking with the same neighbors who had had the party. The conversation turned to a woman who was having work done down the street, and the guys who had been waiting outside her house since early that morning to get started. He laughed and said something along the lines of, “well, they should be good at that, that’s what they do in Mexico all day, stand around, isn’t it?” Again I held my tongue, given the circumstances at that moment.

But on the way home I decided that I wouldn’t hold my tongue again for this guy. If he ever says anything racist again, I’ll call him on it. That last time he crossed the line from, “I can’t change his mind, so I won’t respond,” to, “it doesn’t matter that he won’t change his mind, he needs to hear that he’s a jackass.” Maybe I need to move that line closer; I know there are those that wouldn’t listen to even one comment without speaking up, and I’ve always thought that was a bit extreme, but maybe it isn’t. I’m not sure.

Anyway, yeah, I hear things. It’s one of the few things that make me wish I’d been born later in the evolution cycle. Maybe a million years will help.

Rich

7

Jethro, it sounds like you and I are the same age. My parents grew up in “the North,” But we lived in southern Virginia from 1962-67 while my dad worked down there. For NASA of all places. And eventually got called a “nigger lover” by one or more of his “colleagues” down there. My parents were amazed at how some stuff was still divided, or at situations where the divisions had been outlawed, but people kind of stayed on the same sides of things anyway. Like the drive-in movie theater and refreshment counter. Anyway, I was raised to not tolerate racism.

Racism is like cockroaches. Got cockroaches in your house? They won’t go away until you do something about it. Act polite and they’ll just multiply.

I agree with this, especially in highly social situations, such as a party (long as it’s not at your house). But at the same time, you perhaps owe(d) your grandfather the knowledge that you frown upon racism, that it’s wrong and you know it. People can change, it’s just you can’t make them. They have to do it themselves.

Racism is learned behavior. Often learned from parents or during early childhood, it can be unlearned. Most of the time it does not need to be tolerated. And I only say “most of the time” to cover situations like the party mentioned above.

I never heard “beaner” before. I might think it’s an accountant, or someone who farts a lot. Even if I knew what the person intended, I might question them on it. “What does beaner mean?” which would force him to call attention to it. This might be accompanied by dirty looks from others, an elbow from my wife, etc. But I’d probably do it anyway.

In less social situations, I try not to let it slide if I can.

8

That actually sounds like a good way to address it, even if you know what it means already (I don’t know what beaner means). You’re not directly calling someone out on it, but you are bringing it to people’s attention and if it gets a bad reaction (dirty looks) from others towards the person who made a racist comment, then it’s probably going to have some effect in getting the person to unlearn it, whether they realize it or not. They will probably think twice before saying something like that again, at least in that crowd or similar crowds.

9

This is exactly what I meant when I said we need to call racism racism. Ignorant people have a right to be ignorant, but if they are going to be ignorant in public, they should expect to be called on it.

Yeah, we are both nearing geezer stage.

Great analogy.

This works as an indirect approach. I think I prefer a more direct approach. If someone is an ignorant racist, someone needs to tell him that he is an ignorant racist.

10

Him/he… I’m offended that this “ignorant racist” example is only thought of as being in one gender. (insert ironic/sarcastic smiley)

I’m not one to know how to solve the racism problem, or one that truely knows the problem as it exists today. I’m a caucasian suburban male that grew up in a middle class family that has no racism in it, unless there is such a thing as negative racism (ie. I have extended family who are not white and family members that have stood up for minorities in public situations). On first thought, I think it’d take time for racism to go away. Surely that’s not as fast as most of us would like, but it probably will be a few more generations of humans before racism is no longer a real issue (ie. the result of children learning racism from the parents being degraded). All prejudice will never go away though. People tend to strive in thinking that they are superior to others, no matter what that particular difference is.

While racism is an issue, I think the bigger battle is in overcoming all prejudices and getting society to accept each person for their differences and understand how each person can be an asset to society.

Instead of approaching racism as a problem, I’d rather approach all predjudices as a problem. That’s what the government should be doing for us and there have been laws to that effect. However, sometimes they have gone overboard and caused people to discriminate against the majority (ie. colleges accepting equally qualified minorities over others to meet a quota or whatever). If you overdo it, I think that’ll only cause more racism or prejudges, such as an equally qualified person being rejected over a minority… that rejected person is probably going to “learn” to be against those minorities.

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let me add this for discussion… A lot of what gets called racism is social or economic separation. It is just easier to identify if you can claim that it happens because of skin color.

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i have no problem with racism, everyone’s entitled to their own opinion. unless they’re saying things just to offend a person or only for shock value, then you should just take it easy. don’t be so eager to “call them on it” when it’s just an opinion.

13

So you are willing to sit by and let a fellow human be treated as sub-human out of respect for someone else’s opinion?

14

I’ll agree and disagree here (until Greg calls me on it :wink: ).

Racism just by itself, in it’s pure form, I don’t have a problem with. I don’t condone it, I don’t endorse it, and I certainly don’t practice it. But everyone has some sort of prejudices.

However, I do have a problem with the actions that spring from racism, i.e. racial slurs, physical violence, crime, etc., just because those things infringe on the unalienable rights of others.

For example, someone says to me, “I don’t like Mexicans, so I avoid them.” I respond with, “Well, while I don’t agree with your views, I won’t tell you to stop, because you’re not doing anything bad, and I couldn’t change your opinions.”

But if I see someone walk by a Mexican, call them a beaner, then start beating them, I will feel more than just indifference; that person is not just a racist, he is a criminal, and I will do all I can to throw his sorry-excuse-for-a-person ass into jail.

15

I don’t think so. Sort of a moot point anyway: he’s dead, and while he was alive I didn’t actually hear him say anything racist more than one or two times, and those were when I was young and inexperienced enough that I didn’t have the knowledge or tools necessary to know how to respond. I think I know of his racism more through stories that my mother told than through his own words.

It’s sad, really. I guess one way that people learn that it’s okay to be a racist is by being a victim: he was born in Texas, but both of his parents came from Mexico, and at one point he wasn’t allowed to buy a house in Southern California because the neighborhood was “closed” (I guess that was the “acceptable” term back then for “no wetbacks allowed”). Perhaps a natural reaction is to turn that around toward someone else. I don’t know, I’m not much of a sociologist.

I suppose it may have been a more prevalent slur in Southern California when I was growing up than it was in Sacramento (if you were in the same area you’re in now back then), I don’t know.

An interesting idea. I think the intended immediate response might be good for a laugh, or an uncomfortable moment for the offender. However, past that I think the result would get muddled. Best case, the offender would mumble, “well, sorry, I guess that’s an inappropriate term to use,” but I think that something along the lines of, “well, a Mexican, of course,” is much more likely. At which point you’d be obliged to either accept the explanation and move on – which seems to me would defeat the purpose of the question – or tell the offender straight out that it’s an unappreciated racial slur. And since that was obviously known in the first place, it seems to me that saying it straight out would be better.

In the case where you didn’t actualy know the word, though, asking the honest question certainly seems reasonable.

I guess the reason that I have a “slow fuse” in the presence of racism stems from my generally cynical nature. I think that what might be unlearned is the tendency to verbalize the thoughts, not the fact that the thoughts themselves are incorrect. And while that in itself might be a good thing, it’s such a small part of the pervasive racism that I encounter that it almost doesn’t seem worth the commotion that might be caused in social situations such as the party I was at.

As I said, I’m past worrying about the environment if this particular individual spouts again. But in general, I’m still not sure about where to draw the line.

Rich

16

that is more than opinion. if the white people from your congregation barged in waving shotguns and yelling at those damn dirty spooks to get the hell out, then obviously it shouldn’t be tolerated. but if they just talk amongst themselves about the situation, is that so wrong?

17

Yes.

18

well i don’t believe it’s wrong. some people find racism just appalling, but many generalizations are actually well founded. if i were to honestly evaluate and draw the same conclusion about 9 out of 10 people of a certain race, it would be foolish to expect something completely different from the rest of them. of course we must keep an eye out for the exceptions and not immediately treat people as inferior, but the generalization still holds.

19

You just contradicted yourself and not contradicted yourself.
I thought only Greg and Dudewithasock did that.

Are you saying racism is ok as long as you can prove it?
There was some scary pseudo-science trying to prop it up in the past, I’d hate for us to revisit that approach.
Or is it just that some of us were less Intelligently Designed than others?

20

generalizations are opinions and treating someone as inferior is an action if that helps. i’m afraid to say too much because of certain points in this article i just read.