Do you think the law should force churches and pastors to marry INTERRACIAL couples even if it against their beliefs?
Some of my best friends are pastors.
No pastor has to marry anyone they do not want to marry. Many churches have specific requirements for whom they will marry in the church. Typically, the couple would need to be members of that religion and in some cases members of the local church. In some cases the couple may be required to take counseling and jump through other hoops specified by the local church. My impression is that pastors marry (or don’t marry) whomever they want. They may get into trouble with their denomination, but I do not think that they are second guessed by the state or federal government.
Scott
According to Merriam-Webster Online –
“marriage – the state of being united to a person of the opposite sex as husband or wife in a consensual and contractual relationship recognized by law”
“Marriage” between two people of the same sex, according to this definition, would seem to be impossible as it conflicts with the very definition. I wonder if this is what Greg’s scientific mind is getting at?
I’m all for expanding the definition of the word to the point that we no longer need qualify it as same-sex marriage (a phrase as clunky and jarring as one-wheeled bicycle). Anyway, the phrase tends to divide and separate (it’s marriage, but… it’s a different kind of marriage). In the mean time, we have civil unions. And if the religious underpinnings of the word trouble people, then why are they not similarly up-in-arms about heterosexual atheists getting “married”?
you mean being a member of the democratic party Harper?
BTW: since the differences between civil partnership unions and “marriage” are paper-thin I just don’t get why make such a fuss about it.
why bother?
For the same reason I have to make sure people know I’m riding a uni and not a b*ke… because it matters personally… the same reason straight couples would be bothered if they couldn’t get a marriage for some crackpot reason… words don’t matter, until they do…
I just think that the bigoted assholes should keep out of other people’s business.
Please don’t misunderstand, I don’t think that those bigoted assholes should be forced to do anything that they don’t want to. I believe in those rights.
I fully support the rights of bigoted assholes.
You, sir, have just won this debate a thousand times over
Nope. Churches and pastors don’t have to marry anyone. It should remain as such.
Some churches do perform same sex marriages, but most don’t. A number of years ago none of them did this. I guess they were ALL bigoted assholes in your opinion?
Yup, but they’re allowed to be that way.
You want to know what I really think about all this? I think the whole institution of marriage is stupid. I think that people should be able to enter any contract they want and able to call it whatever they want.
Let these churches have their “marriage” bullshit, with no limitations, but you know what? This issue shouldn’t have anything to do with the churches. They shouldn’t have any power or say in this.
Do you think restaurants and hospitals should HAVE to offer services to all races and sexual identities?
Two Catholics, members of the GLBT Catholic organization Dignity, if same-sex, cannot marry in their church.
The United States Constitution guarantees equality for all.
Not paper thin at all, unless when you fly, you think the difference between first class and second class are paper thin.
Marriage is not a second-class status. Studies have shown that marriage and civil unions or domestic partnerships are not equal.
The New Jersey commission found that people in civil unions were not treated the same way as married couples by government agencies, employers and others. One of the big issues is that people do not understand what civil unions are and how they differ from marriage
Recognition in other states: Even though each state has its own laws around marriage, if someone is married in one state and moves to another, their marriage is legally recognized. For example, Oregon marriage law applies to people 17 and over. In Washington state, the couple must be 18 to wed. However, Washington will recognize the marriage of two 17 year olds from Oregon who move there. This is not the case with Civil Unions and Domestic Partnerships. If someone has a Domestic Partnership, that union is recognized by some states and not others. Some states have even ruled that they do not have to recognize civil unions performed in other states, because their states have no such legal category. As gay marriages become legal in other states, this status may change.
Immigration:
A United States citizen who is married can sponsor his or her non-American opposite-sex spouse for immigration into this country. Those with Civil Unions have no such privilege. Even legally married gay and lesbian couples cannot sponsor their spouses for immigration because of the Defense of Marriage (DOMA) law.
Taxes:
Civil Unions are not recognized by the federal government, so couples would not be able to file joint-tax returns or be eligible for tax breaks or protections the government affords to married couples. Again, because of DOMA, same-sex couples have to file single on their federal tax returns.
Benefits:
The General Accounting Office in 1997 released a list of 1,049 benefits and protections available to heterosexual married couples. These benefits range from federal benefits, such as survivor benefits through Social Security, sick leave to care for ailing partner, tax breaks, veterans benefits and insurance breaks. They also include things like family discounts, obtaining family insurance through your employer, visiting your spouse in the hospital and making medical decisions if your partner is unable to. Civil Unions protect some of these rights, but not all of them.
But can’t a lawyer set all this up for gay and lesbian couples?
No. A lawyer can set up some things like durable power of attorney, wills and medical power of attorney. There are several problems with this, however.
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It costs thousands of dollars in legal fees. A simple marriage license, which usually costs under $100 would cover all the same rights and benefits.
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Any of these can be challenged in court. As a matter of fact, more wills are challenged than not. In the case of wills, legal spouses always have more legal power than any other family member.
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Marriage laws are universal. If someone’s husband or wife is injured in an accident, all you need to do is show up and say you’re his or her spouse. You will not be questioned. If you show up at the hospital with your legal paperwork, the employees may not know what to do with you. If you simply say, “He’s my husband,” you will immediately be taken to your spouse’s side.
Even with lesbian and gay marriages being performed and recognized in some states, the Federal Defense of Marriage Law prohibits the federal government from recognizing gay and lesbian relationships. This puts gay and lesbian couples who are married in a legal limbo. How do they file their tax returns? Do they have to pay the tax on their partner’s health insurance?
How do they fill out legal and other forms, single or married?
Creating Civil Unions creates a separate and unequal status for some of America’s citizens. The Massachusetts Supreme Judicial court ruled that creating a separate class for gay and lesbian citizens is not permissible and that is why they have voted that only marriage equals marriage. The precedent was set with Brown v. The Board of Education regarding segregation in public education. Ironically, Massachusetts marriage law went into effect on the 50th anniversary of Brown v. Board of Education.
The United States Constitution guarantees equality for all. As you can see, marriage and civil unions are not the same. Creating equal access to marriage is the only fair way to ensure equality for gay and straight couples alike.
I usually like to find the Wikapedia site from which Billy cuts and pastes his posts. In this case it looks like he cut and pasted from all over the web. Several paragraphs from different articles on different sites unless I just haven’t found the one that had already put it all together in the form he “published” it. Actually, Billy’s a pretty clever guy. It would be nice to see something in his own words.
They can always stop being Catholic. Why would anyone belong to a religion that hates them? That’s just stupid.
Good question! I’ve been wondering that for awhile!
There’s a leader in my Scout Troop that’s lesbian, and used to be a nun. She’s still fairly religious, and is of course in my scout troop, despite their bigoted opinions on homosexuals.
This is not about forcing anyone to marry a couple… It’s about the union of 2 people being legal…
This means that their partner can visit them in the hospital if they are unconscious, they can help make decisions for their partner if necessary, they can receive health care benefits if their spouse has them, they can benefit from pensions, certain life insurance policies and more… This is about allowing 2 individuals to be married, meaning they become family members through marriage…LEGALLY.
The argument that this is bad because it forces pastors/priestsand clergy men and women to do things they don’t want to do is garbage; many had not problem marrying mixed-race couples back in the day but would not because of the legal backlash on a state and possibly federal that could experience.
Marriage means something on a legal level, unfortunately, marriage is becoming a joke on many fronts with the divorce rate being something like 1 in 2 marriages ending in divorce… Do we even know what marriage really means? If it’s so sacred, why is it foresaken by so many?
Edit: this is #666 post for me
Hmmm… I say that, but I don’t REALLY get why any informed person would belong to any religion at all. I just don’t. I mean, there are some really intelligent religious people, and I understand most of their justifications for it, but… no. It still makes no sense. Religion just doesn’t work on an either an intellectual or emotional level, so why bother with it?
…You can all just ignore what I’m saying here, religious debates on this forum never go anywhere.
I completely agree… but you’re right, debates, both political and religious, go absolutely NOWHERE, anytime.
Have you ever read the poem by John Godfrey Saxe, “The Blind Men and the Elephant?” It’s really cool. I suggest that everyone reads it; has a great message. I memorized it in 20 minutes last night.
That’s not entirely true. You just have to have a group of people who can calmly break everything down to the base facts and values, build logical arguments from that, and then admit when they are wrong.
Oftentimes the best that can be done is to inspire deeper thought/introspection. Changes in base values in particular take time. When these differ, you usually just have to agree to disagree.
The blind men and the elephant is a really old fable; I think most people have heard it in some form or another.