LEO - HP/UX

“Mark Lyon” <mark@marklyon.org> wrote in message
news:3B56495E.68FB1515@marklyon.org
> Leo,
>
> You have any experience with HP/UX? Any gotcha’s I should be looking
> out for?
>
> Anyone else have expereience with pa-risc linux on a HP9000?
>

I only found a security bug with it 5 years ago that’s still not fixed.
What are you looking to do with it?

It is mostly same as any unix with the exception of administration tools
suite. I think you can run glance on it for visual administration.

Leo

Leo,

You have any experience with HP/UX? Any gotcha’s I should be
looking out for?

Anyone else have expereience with pa-risc linux on a HP9000?

cool. I’m now in charge of a 9000 and a bunch owrk worksations that aren’t
going to talk to each other. they don’t like to play nice since they’v
ebeen moved. no other changes made since then. it’s quite odd.

I’m sure something is just a little too old, you know how that goes.

“Leonid S. Knyshov at Home” wrote:

> “Mark Lyon” <mark@marklyon.org> wrote in message
> news:3B56495E.68FB1515@marklyon.org
> > Leo,
> >
> > You have any experience with HP/UX? Any gotcha’s I should be looking
> > out for?
> >
> > Anyone else have expereience with pa-risc linux on a HP9000?
> >
>
> I only found a security bug with it 5 years ago that’s still not fixed.
> What are you looking to do with it?
>
> It is mostly same as any unix with the exception of administration tools
> suite. I think you can run glance on it for visual administration.
>
> Leo

Ah, HP/UX networking?

It’s not that difficult :slight_smile:

Let’s see… the machines were moved, they kept the old IP addresses (DHCP
is not used often in Unix), and the switches they are connected to now are
on a different network block or even vlan.

“Mark Lyon” <mark@marklyon.org> wrote in message
news:3B56536C.56484EAB@marklyon.org
> cool. I’m now in charge of a 9000 and a bunch owrk worksations that
aren’t
> going to talk to each other. they don’t like to play nice since they’v
ebeen
> moved. no other changes made since then. it’s quite odd.
>
> I’m sure something is just a little too old, you know how that goes.
>
> “Leonid S. Knyshov at Home” wrote:
>
> > “Mark Lyon” <mark@marklyon.org> wrote in message
> > news:3B56495E.68FB1515@marklyon.org
> > > Leo,
> > >
> > > You have any experience with HP/UX? Any gotcha’s I should be looking
> > > out for?
> > >
> > > Anyone else have expereience with pa-risc linux on a HP9000?
> > >
> >
> > I only found a security bug with it 5 years ago that’s still not
> > fixed.
What
> > are you looking to do with it?
> >
> > It is mostly same as any unix with the exception of administration
> > tools suite. I think you can run glance on it for visual
> > administration.
> >
> > Leo

No, the problem I’m having is that two of the workstations are flooding
the network as soon as they get going. They had been turned off for
forever, and I know why. Unfortunately, I need to use these two, so I
guess it’s on to ebay to look for a new NIC. I’ve jsut about exhausted
every other solution.

“Leonid S. Knyshov at Home” wrote:

> Ah, HP/UX networking?
>
> It’s not that difficult :slight_smile:
>
> Let’s see… the machines were moved, they kept the old IP addresses
> (DHCP is not used often in Unix), and the switches they are connected to
> now are on a different network block or even vlan.
>
> “Mark Lyon” <mark@marklyon.org> wrote in message
> news:3B56536C.56484EAB@marklyon.org
> > cool. I’m now in charge of a 9000 and a bunch owrk worksations that
> aren’t
> > going to talk to each other. they don’t like to play nice since they’v
> ebeen
> > moved. no other changes made since then. it’s quite odd.
> >
> > I’m sure something is just a little too old, you know how that goes.
> >
> > “Leonid S. Knyshov at Home” wrote:
> >
> > > “Mark Lyon” <mark@marklyon.org> wrote in message
> > > news:3B56495E.68FB1515@marklyon.org
> > > > Leo,
> > > >
> > > > You have any experience with HP/UX? Any gotcha’s I should be
> > > > looking out for?
> > > >
> > > > Anyone else have expereience with pa-risc linux on a HP9000?
> > > >
> > >
> > > I only found a security bug with it 5 years ago that’s still not
> > > fixed.
> What
> > > are you looking to do with it?
> > >
> > > It is mostly same as any unix with the exception of administration
> > > tools suite. I think you can run glance on it for visual
> > > administration.
> > >
> > > Leo

Is this a switched network? If you are still using hubs, you are asking
for trouble.

A sample packet dump would be useful.

Leo

“Mark Lyon” <mark@marklyon.org> wrote in message
news:3B5745D6.662E7D9B@marklyon.org
> No, the problem I’m having is that two of the workstations are flooding
the
> network as soon as they get going. They had been turned off for forever,
and I
> know why. Unfortunately, I need to use these two, so I guess it’s on to
ebay
> to look for a new NIC. I’ve jsut about exhausted every other solution.
>
> “Leonid S. Knyshov at Home” wrote:
>
> > Ah, HP/UX networking?
> >
> > It’s not that difficult :slight_smile:
> >
> > Let’s see… the machines were moved, they kept the old IP addresses
(DHCP is
> > not used often in Unix), and the switches they are connected to
> > now are
on a
> > different network block or even vlan.
> >
> > “Mark Lyon” <mark@marklyon.org> wrote in message
> > news:3B56536C.56484EAB@marklyon.org
> > > cool. I’m now in charge of a 9000 and a bunch owrk worksations that
> > aren’t
> > > going to talk to each other. they don’t like to play nice since
they’v
> > ebeen
> > > moved. no other changes made since then. it’s quite odd.
> > >
> > > I’m sure something is just a little too old, you know how that goes.
> > >
> > > “Leonid S. Knyshov at Home” wrote:
> > >
> > > > “Mark Lyon” <mark@marklyon.org> wrote in message
> > > > news:3B56495E.68FB1515@marklyon.org
> > > > > Leo,
> > > > >
> > > > > You have any experience with HP/UX? Any gotcha’s I should be
looking
> > > > > out for?
> > > > >
> > > > > Anyone else have expereience with pa-risc linux on a HP9000?
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > I only found a security bug with it 5 years ago that’s still not
fixed.
> > What
> > > > are you looking to do with it?
> > > >
> > > > It is mostly same as any unix with the exception of administration
tools
> > > > suite. I think you can run glance on it for visual administration.
> > > >
> > > > Leo
>

Yes, the hub is a problem. I’m going to have to swap to a switch, but I’ve
been moved to another lab. One of the grad students is taking over the 9X.
Just got told about it.

I’m kinda upset at the adminsitration. I was hoping to contribute some
code for pa-risc. Now, the lab is going to be grad students only except at
3-8am. I guess I’ll have to work around them.

“Leonid S. Knyshov at Home” wrote:

> Is this a switched network? If you are still using hubs, you are asking
> for trouble.
>
> A sample packet dump would be useful.
>
> Leo
>
> “Mark Lyon” <mark@marklyon.org> wrote in message
> news:3B5745D6.662E7D9B@marklyon.org
> > No, the problem I’m having is that two of the workstations are
> > flooding
> the
> > network as soon as they get going. They had been turned off for
> > forever,
> and I
> > know why. Unfortunately, I need to use these two, so I guess
> > it’s on to
> ebay
> > to look for a new NIC. I’ve jsut about exhausted every other solution.
> >
> > “Leonid S. Knyshov at Home” wrote:
> >
> > > Ah, HP/UX networking?
> > >
> > > It’s not that difficult :slight_smile:
> > >
> > > Let’s see… the machines were moved, they kept the old IP addresses
> (DHCP is
> > > not used often in Unix), and the switches they are connected to
> > > now are
> on a
> > > different network block or even vlan.
> > >
> > > “Mark Lyon” <mark@marklyon.org> wrote in message
> > > news:3B56536C.56484EAB@marklyon.org
> > > > cool. I’m now in charge of a 9000 and a bunch owrk worksations
> > > > that
> > > aren’t
> > > > going to talk to each other. they don’t like to play nice since
> they’v
> > > ebeen
> > > > moved. no other changes made since then. it’s quite odd.
> > > >
> > > > I’m sure something is just a little too old, you know how that
> > > > goes.
> > > >
> > > > “Leonid S. Knyshov at Home” wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > “Mark Lyon” <mark@marklyon.org> wrote in message
> > > > > news:3B56495E.68FB1515@marklyon.org
> > > > > > Leo,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > You have any experience with HP/UX? Any gotcha’s I should be
> looking
> > > > > > out for?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Anyone else have expereience with pa-risc linux on a HP9000?
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I only found a security bug with it 5 years ago that’s still not
> fixed.
> > > What
> > > > > are you looking to do with it?
> > > > >
> > > > > It is mostly same as any unix with the exception of
> > > > > administration
> tools
> > > > > suite. I think you can run glance on it for visual
> > > > > administration.
> > > > >
> > > > > Leo
> > > >

By the way Leo,

Have you ever though of teaching? We’re looking for a unix/linux/hardware
prof in our department.

“Leonid S. Knyshov at Home” wrote:

> Is this a switched network? If you are still using hubs, you are asking
> for trouble.
>
> A sample packet dump would be useful.
>
> Leo
>
> “Mark Lyon” <mark@marklyon.org> wrote in message
> news:3B5745D6.662E7D9B@marklyon.org
> > No, the problem I’m having is that two of the workstations are
> > flooding
> the
> > network as soon as they get going. They had been turned off for
> > forever,
> and I
> > know why. Unfortunately, I need to use these two, so I guess
> > it’s on to
> ebay
> > to look for a new NIC. I’ve jsut about exhausted every other solution.
> >
> > “Leonid S. Knyshov at Home” wrote:
> >
> > > Ah, HP/UX networking?
> > >
> > > It’s not that difficult :slight_smile:
> > >
> > > Let’s see… the machines were moved, they kept the old IP addresses
> (DHCP is
> > > not used often in Unix), and the switches they are connected to
> > > now are
> on a
> > > different network block or even vlan.
> > >
> > > “Mark Lyon” <mark@marklyon.org> wrote in message
> > > news:3B56536C.56484EAB@marklyon.org
> > > > cool. I’m now in charge of a 9000 and a bunch owrk worksations
> > > > that
> > > aren’t
> > > > going to talk to each other. they don’t like to play nice since
> they’v
> > > ebeen
> > > > moved. no other changes made since then. it’s quite odd.
> > > >
> > > > I’m sure something is just a little too old, you know how that
> > > > goes.
> > > >
> > > > “Leonid S. Knyshov at Home” wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > “Mark Lyon” <mark@marklyon.org> wrote in message
> > > > > news:3B56495E.68FB1515@marklyon.org
> > > > > > Leo,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > You have any experience with HP/UX? Any gotcha’s I should be
> looking
> > > > > > out for?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Anyone else have expereience with pa-risc linux on a HP9000?
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I only found a security bug with it 5 years ago that’s still not
> fixed.
> > > What
> > > > > are you looking to do with it?
> > > > >
> > > > > It is mostly same as any unix with the exception of
> > > > > administration
> tools
> > > > > suite. I think you can run glance on it for visual
> > > > > administration.
> > > > >
> > > > > Leo
> > > >

I am not good enough to teach :slight_smile:

I’ve done that a few years ago back in high school with mixed success in
the subjects of basic Novell and Linux. I need to know a lot more than I
do now in order for me to effectively present the material on the subject
at an acceptable level, not to mention a master’s degree in EE/CS.

An intro Unix course is a simple thing to present, but any advanced
material involving OS internals simply requires solid programming
experience which I do not have.

Leonid S. Knyshov

“Mark Lyon” <mark@marklyon.org> wrote in message
news:3B574D78.A1192EDD@marklyon.org
> By the way Leo,
>
> Have you ever though of teaching? We’re looking for a
> unix/linux/hardware prof in our department.
>
> “Leonid S. Knyshov at Home” wrote:
>
> > Is this a switched network? If you are still using hubs, you are
> > asking
for
> > trouble.
> >
> > A sample packet dump would be useful.
> >
> > Leo
> >
> > “Mark Lyon” <mark@marklyon.org> wrote in message
> > news:3B5745D6.662E7D9B@marklyon.org
> > > No, the problem I’m having is that two of the workstations are
flooding
> > the
> > > network as soon as they get going. They had been turned off for
forever,
> > and I
> > > know why. Unfortunately, I need to use these two, so I guess it’s on
to
> > ebay
> > > to look for a new NIC. I’ve jsut about exhausted every other
solution.
> > >
> > > “Leonid S. Knyshov at Home” wrote:
> > >
> > > > Ah, HP/UX networking?
> > > >
> > > > It’s not that difficult :slight_smile:
> > > >
> > > > Let’s see… the machines were moved, they kept the old IP
> > > > addresses
> > (DHCP is
> > > > not used often in Unix), and the switches they are connected to
> > > > now
are
> > on a
> > > > different network block or even vlan.
> > > >
> > > > “Mark Lyon” <mark@marklyon.org> wrote in message
> > > > news:3B56536C.56484EAB@marklyon.org
> > > > > cool. I’m now in charge of a 9000 and a bunch owrk worksations
that
> > > > aren’t
> > > > > going to talk to each other. they don’t like to play nice since
> > they’v
> > > > ebeen
> > > > > moved. no other changes made since then. it’s quite odd.
> > > > >
> > > > > I’m sure something is just a little too old, you know how that
goes.
> > > > >
> > > > > “Leonid S. Knyshov at Home” wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > “Mark Lyon” <mark@marklyon.org> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:3B56495E.68FB1515@marklyon.org
> > > > > > > Leo,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > You have any experience with HP/UX? Any gotcha’s I should be
> > looking
> > > > > > > out for?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Anyone else have expereience with pa-risc linux on a HP9000?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I only found a security bug with it 5 years ago that’s still
> > > > > > not
> > fixed.
> > > > What
> > > > > > are you looking to do with it?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It is mostly same as any unix with the exception of
administration
> > tools
> > > > > > suite. I think you can run glance on it for visual
administration.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Leo
> > > > >
>

Just checking. We’ve had a few applicants come through this summer, and as
head of ACM I’ve been able to talk with most of them. What disappointes me
is that even though they may have a Ph.D. in electrical engineering, Math,
and Computer Science, they don’t know how to relate simple ideas and have
no real world experience.

I had one guy that I basically blew his very slick outside. We were with a
few of the faculty and a couple of students, and I asked him to explain to
me why chained hashing would be better than uniform hashing for a specific
example. He jsut looked at me with a blank sater, and his eyes glazed
over. He muttered some stuff that really didn’t explain why. It was quite
fun. This guy with multiple Ph.D.'s was trying to talk down and couldn’t
do it (even though I didn’t need him to, while I presented myself as just
some student asking why I already knew why. I had worked on it and proven
it myself)

“Leonid S. Knyshov at Home” wrote:

> I am not good enough to teach :slight_smile:
>
> I’ve done that a few years ago back in high school with mixed success
> in the subjects of basic Novell and Linux. I need to know a lot more
> than I do now in order for me to effectively present the material on
> the subject at an acceptable level, not to mention a master’s degree
> in EE/CS.
>
> An intro Unix course is a simple thing to present, but any advanced
> material involving OS internals simply requires solid programming
> experience which I do not have.
>
> Leonid S. Knyshov
>
> “Mark Lyon” <mark@marklyon.org> wrote in message
> news:3B574D78.A1192EDD@marklyon.org
> > By the way Leo,
> >
> > Have you ever though of teaching? We’re looking for a
> > unix/linux/hardware prof in our department.
> >
> > “Leonid S. Knyshov at Home” wrote:
> >
> > > Is this a switched network? If you are still using hubs, you are
> > > asking
> for
> > > trouble.
> > >
> > > A sample packet dump would be useful.
> > >
> > > Leo
> > >
> > > “Mark Lyon” <mark@marklyon.org> wrote in message
> > > news:3B5745D6.662E7D9B@marklyon.org
> > > > No, the problem I’m having is that two of the workstations are
> flooding
> > > the
> > > > network as soon as they get going. They had been turned off for
> forever,
> > > and I
> > > > know why. Unfortunately, I need to use these two, so I guess it’s
> > > > on
> to
> > > ebay
> > > > to look for a new NIC. I’ve jsut about exhausted every other
> solution.
> > > >
> > > > “Leonid S. Knyshov at Home” wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Ah, HP/UX networking?
> > > > >
> > > > > It’s not that difficult :slight_smile:
> > > > >
> > > > > Let’s see… the machines were moved, they kept the old IP
> > > > > addresses
> > > (DHCP is
> > > > > not used often in Unix), and the switches they are connected to
> > > > > now
> are
> > > on a
> > > > > different network block or even vlan.
> > > > >
> > > > > “Mark Lyon” <mark@marklyon.org> wrote in message
> > > > > news:3B56536C.56484EAB@marklyon.org
> > > > > > cool. I’m now in charge of a 9000 and a bunch owrk worksations
> that
> > > > > aren’t
> > > > > > going to talk to each other. they don’t like to play nice
> > > > > > since
> > > they’v
> > > > > ebeen
> > > > > > moved. no other changes made since then. it’s quite odd.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I’m sure something is just a little too old, you know how that
> goes.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > “Leonid S. Knyshov at Home” wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > “Mark Lyon” <mark@marklyon.org> wrote in message
> > > > > > > news:3B56495E.68FB1515@marklyon.org
> > > > > > > > Leo,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > You have any experience with HP/UX? Any gotcha’s I should
> > > > > > > > be
> > > looking
> > > > > > > > out for?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Anyone else have expereience with pa-risc linux on a
> > > > > > > > HP9000?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I only found a security bug with it 5 years ago that’s still
> > > > > > > not
> > > fixed.
> > > > > What
> > > > > > > are you looking to do with it?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > It is mostly same as any unix with the exception of
> administration
> > > tools
> > > > > > > suite. I think you can run glance on it for visual
> administration.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Leo
> > > > > >
> > > >

Mark Lyon wrote:
>
> You have any experience with HP/UX? Any gotcha’s I should be looking
> out for?

I have experience with HP/UX, but only so far as to say it was really hard
to compile a working MUSH system on it about 4 years ago :slight_smile:


Shena Delian O’Brien * http://www.darklock.com/shena/ The Graphics Kitty!

It is incredibly difficult to explain simple things after a certain point.

The problem is that how do you teach something if you have no real-world
experience? It’s a very bad standpoint that gives the students a false
image of the reality. I’ve worked with several Ph.Ds, and they were really
bright people, but every e-mail was like a dissertation.

It really is quite difficult when someone asks what is to me a simple
question and I don’t realize what they don’t already know. Usually it
takes me a couple of tries to get it explained. When I have to take
lower level exams such as SCSA I or CCNA, they ask questions for which
there is more than one right answer if you know enough, so I have to
mark the answer that is no longer correct later on, but still correct at
that point.

I’ve had to re-adjust to the real world English after leaving the law firm
I worked for because people were simply scared :slight_smile:

Leonid S. Knyshov

“Mark Lyon” <mark@marklyon.org> wrote in message
news:3B575415.C52EA065@marklyon.org
> Just checking. We’ve had a few applicants come through this summer, and
as
> head of ACM I’ve been able to talk with most of them. What
> disappointes me
is
> that even though they may have a Ph.D. in electrical engineering, Math,
and
> Computer Science, they don’t know how to relate simple ideas and have no
real
> world experience.
>
> I had one guy that I basically blew his very slick outside. We were with
a few
> of the faculty and a couple of students, and I asked him to
> explain to me
why
> chained hashing would be better than uniform hashing for a specific
example.
> He jsut looked at me with a blank sater, and his eyes glazed over. He
muttered
> some stuff that really didn’t explain why. It was quite fun. This guy
with
> multiple Ph.D.'s was trying to talk down and couldn’t do it (even
> though I didn’t need him to, while I presented myself as just some
> student asking
why I
> already knew why. I had worked on it and proven it myself)
>
> “Leonid S. Knyshov at Home” wrote:
>
> > I am not good enough to teach :slight_smile:
> >
> > I’ve done that a few years ago back in high school with mixed
> > success in
the
> > subjects of basic Novell and Linux. I need to know a lot more
> > than I do
now
> > in order for me to effectively present the material on the subject at
> > an acceptable level, not to mention a master’s degree in EE/CS.
> >
> > An intro Unix course is a simple thing to present, but any advanced
material
> > involving OS internals simply requires solid programming experience
which I
> > do not have.
> >
> > Leonid S. Knyshov
> >
> > “Mark Lyon” <mark@marklyon.org> wrote in message
> > news:3B574D78.A1192EDD@marklyon.org
> > > By the way Leo,
> > >
> > > Have you ever though of teaching? We’re looking for a
unix/linux/hardware
> > > prof in our department.
> > >
> > > “Leonid S. Knyshov at Home” wrote:
> > >
> > > > Is this a switched network? If you are still using hubs, you are
asking
> > for
> > > > trouble.
> > > >
> > > > A sample packet dump would be useful.
> > > >
> > > > Leo
> > > >
> > > > “Mark Lyon” <mark@marklyon.org> wrote in message
> > > > news:3B5745D6.662E7D9B@marklyon.org
> > > > > No, the problem I’m having is that two of the workstations are
> > flooding
> > > > the
> > > > > network as soon as they get going. They had been turned off for
> > forever,
> > > > and I
> > > > > know why. Unfortunately, I need to use these two, so I guess
> > > > > it’s
on
> > to
> > > > ebay
> > > > > to look for a new NIC. I’ve jsut about exhausted every other
> > solution.
> > > > >
> > > > > “Leonid S. Knyshov at Home” wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Ah, HP/UX networking?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It’s not that difficult :slight_smile:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Let’s see… the machines were moved, they kept the old IP
addresses
> > > > (DHCP is
> > > > > > not used often in Unix), and the switches they are connected
> > > > > > to
now
> > are
> > > > on a
> > > > > > different network block or even vlan.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > “Mark Lyon” <mark@marklyon.org> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:3B56536C.56484EAB@marklyon.org
> > > > > > > cool. I’m now in charge of a 9000 and a bunch owrk
worksations
> > that
> > > > > > aren’t
> > > > > > > going to talk to each other. they don’t like to play nice
since
> > > > they’v
> > > > > > ebeen
> > > > > > > moved. no other changes made since then. it’s quite odd.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I’m sure something is just a little too old, you know how
> > > > > > > that
> > goes.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > “Leonid S. Knyshov at Home” wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > “Mark Lyon” <mark@marklyon.org> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > news:3B56495E.68FB1515@marklyon.org
> > > > > > > > > Leo,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > You have any experience with HP/UX? Any gotcha’s I
> > > > > > > > > should
be
> > > > looking
> > > > > > > > > out for?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Anyone else have expereience with pa-risc linux on a
HP9000?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I only found a security bug with it 5 years ago that’s
> > > > > > > > still
not
> > > > fixed.
> > > > > > What
> > > > > > > > are you looking to do with it?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > It is mostly same as any unix with the exception of
> > administration
> > > > tools
> > > > > > > > suite. I think you can run glance on it for visual
> > administration.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Leo
> > > > > > >
> > > > >
>

Fun fun fun!

I’ve got it running… sort of (on 13 workstations and a 9x, but two
aren’t acting right.)

Shena Delian O’Brien wrote:

> Mark Lyon wrote:
> >
> > You have any experience with HP/UX? Any gotcha’s I should be looking
> > out for?
>
> I have experience with HP/UX, but only so far as to say it was really
> hard to compile a working MUSH system on it about 4 years ago
>
> –
> Shena Delian O’Brien * http://www.darklock.com/shena/ The Graphics
> Kitty! * http://www.darklock.com/abstract/ Fantasy Age *
> http://www.darklock.com/fantasy/