Well, it’s been 3 years, hundreds of thousands of lives, billions of dollars and what for? The country lies in ruins, on the brink of civil war and neither “freedom” or “democracy” have been achieved.
The war that started on lies and deception ( yes that includes bending the truth), and was ment to be waged on “terrrorists” has had the largest impact on the civilians of a country that had no assosiation to the events that triggered it- september the 11th.
From what i’ve seen on the news The citizens of the coalition of the killing are now against the war. But trust this to be driven by selfish single mindedness. All the posters displayed in pictures from the american protests are based around the “bring the troops home” premise. They are agaisnt the war becasue of its cost on THEM. What about the poor bloody Iraqis? Would these protesters demands be sated by a simple troop withdrawal, leaving the Iraqi state open for exploitation by terrorists that have been drawn there from all around the middle east because or America’s presence there.
Over all the situation is F*#ked up pretty bad, and from here any course of action is going to result in more pain and death on both sides of the divide.
All we can hope for is that in the future is that world superpowers will look at this situation and LEARN from it- something america obviously needs to work on, forgetting it’s past is an all to common event in modern American history.
mark
…Speaking of ‘bending the truth’…
more people have now died in the war that started from 9/11 than died in 9/11 originally.
yea, mike youre one of those george, paul, john, and ringo, peace, love and drugs, no war, lets be one with nature, kinda people. 
Napalm/Mark, you’re very right sir.
The war was also waged another thing that has yet to turn up: Weapons of Mass Destruction.
We didn’t find the WMD’s, and there was proven to be no connection from the events of 9/11 to Saddam (like you already said), so the war changed into “operation iraqi freedom.” It took America so long to realize this. I’m glad people are finally waking up.
Here’s a quote from Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. that I really like:
“Violence as a way of achieving justice is both impractical and immoral. It is impractical because it is a descending sprial ending in destruction for all. The old law of an eye for an eye leaves everybody blind. It is immoral because it seeks to humiliate the opponent rather than to win his understanding; it seeks to annihilate rather than to convert. Violence is immoral because it thrives on hatred rather than love. It destroys community and makes brotherhood impossible. Violence ends by defeating itself. It creates bitterness in the survivors and brutality in the destroyers.”
But, like you, I question if bringing our troops home now is the right thing to do. After all of the destruction we’ve done, I think we better tidy up, and not leave those poor people with a mess.
It’s also unfortunate that young men and women, let alone innocent civilians die at the whim of a hand in a business suit that signs a paper in the safety and comfort of an air conditioned office. But, may I add before I get touted as a ‘crazy liberal’ that I consider myself independent. I don’t like either of the two major, corporate greed driven parties.
There’s more that could be said. However, I’ll leave it at this.
Later,
Evan
three years is nothing, when you look at the history of war.
the problem with us americans is we want to have everything fast and cheap, and our attention spans stink, and so when something like thisnwar, this very important overthrow of one of the worlds worst tyrents, begins to last longer than expected, everyone gets bored and wants to change the channel. i supported this war when the president started it, and i still support it 1 thousand percent because in the long run, the vision of Bush will prevail and it will shake up the rottenness that creeped into the middle east and freedom will come, maybe not now, maybe not next week or next year, but freedom will blossom in the middle east and it will be becAUSE we invaded irak and threw out that monster sadam
we forget what a beast this guy was, how he used to torture and gas his own people, the RAPE ROOMS and this tendency to invade his neighbotrs. he used to give 10 thousand dollars to the families of suicide bombers. he kept all the nations oil revenus for himself. now some of you might think that “this guy sadam is an old man, he will die soon” but think again b4ecause he was grooming his sicko sons to take over after him. it was sick. he deserved to be taken out, and only the forces of the USA wretre up to the job. and sooner or later, you just know that he was going to give nuclear bombs to terrorists, or that maybe one of his sicko sons would give WMDs to terrorists. just look at his face, you tell me that he did not like al queda? i’m sure he jumped for joy when they attacked. if he did not have connections to al queda then, you can bet your favorite unicycle thAT he would have connections to them by now, because both hate america, and 911 showed him how serious and professional they were. in one of the hotels in bagdad, there used to be this mosaic on bush’s father on the floor that everyone would walk on, that shows how much he had respect for america. he even tried to kill the older president bush, which in my mind, trying to kill an ex president is an act of war.
the government is right to call this war “the long war” because it is, and it will be. so what if the battle for iraq is in its 3rd year? we are in this for the long haul. and you just never know, sometimes i think that going into iraq may have saved an american city because it forced alqueda to focus on the invasion of iraq, and who knows what horrible thing they were planning next. wars are long, gruling things. its not like going to the supermarket where you go in quickly and leave once you fill your bags.
a lot of people who were in favor of the war when it started are now dissing it because it is “going on too long” and you have to wonder how deeply were they comitted in the first place. i supported the war on day 1, and i will suport it on day 10,000 because i never believed that it would be quick and easy. at least some of my liberal friends who were against the war in the beginning were clear about it, but now all these people who are now turning vchicken just when the going gets rough dont understand anything about a nations commitment to war, and to freedom, these guys are mushy and indecicive. people who voted for bush in 2004 are now turning against him, but this is too late, you should have given it more thought, not just supported the war in year 2, then change your mind in year3!
i still think that it was the right thing to do. a lot of good never gets reported, but as the president says, we have to look past all the violent images to see the big picture.
Buddy
ps–i thought this wAS SUPPOSED TO BE A UNICYCLE WEBSITE? but here we are, politics as usual…
heck yes I am!
except without the drugs (:
all you need is love, man…
we like NEVER talk about unicycling here. if you want unicycle stuff, go to that other forum, the one they call RSU.
You make a lot of great points, and I agree with you in many areas–especially where you mentioned that american’s want everything done fast and easily. It’s true. And I agree with you that this is going to be a long war. I also agree that it’s easy to point the finger and lay blame.
But you can’t ignore the fact–and I know I’ll get a “love it or leave it” comment if I delve to far into this–that this country is neck deep in blood shed from it’s own forms of greed, corruption, and tyranny, on some level. The world powers with their ideologies of “democracy” and “communism” causing the most damage the world over, out of a nationalist, self-righteous , phallic fixated pride. Our brand of freedom, and so-called democracy has sure killed a heck of a lot of people, and innocent people at that.
Also, because of this, we gave CIA training to the taliban, when we were helping Afghanistan kick the USSR out in the early '80s. Don’t forget that Don Rumsfield himself was shaking Saddam’s hand one time or another, during the Reagan Administration. We gave Iraq the tanks that we were attcked with in Kuwait, during Persian Gulf 1. Heck, we were flip-floping for Iran and then Iraq, giving them both weapons, when they were duking it out during the early '80s, also.
So, really, I don’t know who’s been worse. We chastise Saddam now, when we used to back him–he hasn’t changed all of these years, and neither have we for that matter.
Regarding 9/11, I would suggest you watch this very informative and thought provoking documentary. I’m not going to say what my personal views of it are, but it sure opened up new thoughts for me to consider. I hope the link works: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8260059923762628848
It’s kind of like watching american media depict the occupation of Iraq, and switched to foreign media. It’s amazing how much the perspectives often differ.
Again, I’m not trying to sound like I know it all. I don’t. I merely enjoy looking at both sides to every issue. That’s a big reason as to why I’m independent. I try to come to some sort of compromise.
Evan
…I agree
dont worry, you wont get that kind of thing from me. i hate it when myu fellow conservatives say that kind of thing. its bogus.
dont get me wrong, i love america and all the freedoms here, but when someone says the “love it or leave it thing”, i get pissed off
my mom is totally consevative, and straight as an arrow, and my dad is a total left winger (practically a commie) and he drinks a lot at parties. i take after my mom when it comes to politics, but i take after my dad when it comes to partying-up.
so america, “drink it or leave it on the shelf!”
buddy
Bud-Litebulb, your views are a great example of how easily America has made it for it’s citizens to forget the past.
Can you tell me how this is different to the USA funelling millions of dollars to the fascist dictatorship in Nicuragua during the Cold war- simply because it was the polar opposite of communism?
Another thing, when America went into Iraq they assembled a coalition of the willing based on their own lies and “intelligence” which included A number of nations. Australia, Great Britain, Spain, Japan etc have all had troops stationed there. I am sure that more nations- hell even maybe the French, would have been determined to stop Saddam Husseins dictatorship through a truthfull means (thats what the UN is there for), instead of going to war on a basis of lies.
Al Quaeda was not in bed with saddam Husseain as you state. Infact, his violations of the most basic of Qu’ranic laws put him at odds with the religiously fanatical group. America’s invasion bought the two together by a mutual hate of the nation that has casued this “rotteneness in the Middle east”.
James Potter, i would say that more people died in Iraq than in the 9/11 attacks long before the third anniversary of the invasion. (or maybe you were only thinking of Americans?)
I dare say that there is more of the “good” being reported in the media, than there is the “Evil”. What about the media ban on the prisioners in Guantanamo bay? The institutionalised torture that is justified becasue this war on “terrorism” is different and therefore does not need to apply to other codes of war?
mark
actually, napalm, you are mixing up some countries here. Nicaragua was run by the sandinistas, and we DID NOT support them, we supported the contras, but they were not in power, it was the communist sandanistas who were in power
i think the countries you mentioned went to war on our side because they believeed colin powell. other countries chose not to join because that was their choice. that is not really the point, who went with us and who did not. we elected Bush to decide these things, just us here in the USA, and those other countries were free to come or not. we would have gone alone, if need be, because we had a leader (have) a leader with vision. I dont criticize those other countries for no0t going. I like france very much (have neveer been there but i would likie to go some day) and they already proved that they are good fighters at Verdun during ww1, but the french and the germans and the russians decided to sit this one out, and someday, in future generations, history will say that they should have joined us. at least the japanese are with us, my grandfather was in ww2 and he told me that it is better to have them on our side this time because he said that they were rfeally tough fighters
you have just proved my point. i did not say that they were in bed, but that after 911, sadam would WANT to be in bed with them (ugh, a gross image!) because they proved how tough they were
those guys in gitmo are TERRORISTS, captured while fighting alongside talaban and alqueda
they would kill any of us in a second
that said, i think gitmo is more trouble than it is worth, so they should justthink of a new wayt to deal with these vicious killers, like put them all in US prisions, and let them get beaten up by USA criminals in prison
-Buddy
wow man, I just watched that whole thing, and I must say, it is one of the most interesting 9/11 documentaries I’ve seen yet…
Bud-Litebulb- It seems as though you find it impossible that your government could do anything at all possibly wrong. I travelled to the US earlier this year and found that the people are the nicest you could ever hope for, but are too trusting of others. In a society where the government is supported so much by “independant” media this trust can be easily manipulated.
Not all those in Guantanamo are blood thirsty killers. Australian David Hicks is still being held in this limbo. He has not been charged with any crime, and yet is being treated worse than a criminal. I’m sure if he had the chance he would take a spot in a US prision anyday. At least there he would be privvy to the US justice system, and would not have to face horrible interrogations that include sleep deprivation, stress positions, intimidation by dogs, and sexual humiliation- also some basic respect for his religion there could be found. (instead of befouling the Qu’ran).
- a vision? geez the conservative religious rhetoric could not be more palpable. Who then is the enemy, the radical muslims or the radical christians? Just imagine if the tables were turned. Say, after America invaded cuba in the bay of pigs, a muslim state took it on themsleves to stop this evil nation that “had a habit of invading others” and went to dispose of this threat. They then tortured your soldiers who took it upon themselves to defend their nation. Change your perspective and get a grip of what horrible injustices the US has inflicted on the middle east. Maybe then you can understand why the september 11th attacks took place. Hating america is not a geographical or racial phenomenon passed down through the ages. There are motives out there for people’s actions.
“you can bomb the world into pieces, but you can’t bomb it into peace”
the only way any nation can surely stop a terrorist attack is to stop making enemies.
mark
not true. just look at Clinton, and jimmy carter.
bush did screw up a coupkle of things, like picking harriet meyers, and dragging his a$$ on katrina, i’ll give you that
How do you know that he is NOT a terrorist? are you assuming that he is innocent because he is australian? i know that all of you australins are a very proud people, and a very nice group of people too (although every time I meet an australian I always come away thinking that they talk a little too much, like texans with cockney accents), and i like australians a lot, especially because i like fosters lager, but you never know, just because he is australian does not make him inocent, but wait a minute here, i already said in an earlier post that i too think that the gitmo prisoners would be better off in the US prison system, and your reasons stated above only help my point to that end, so i guess we agree on the point of gitmo:)
the radical muslims are the enemy, well, only the ones who try to blow people up. i dont care if anyone wantrs to be a radical muslim, the whole world can wear veils and point to mecca five times a day for all I care, they can get as radical as they want, just dont go around killing anyone. the same is true for radical christians, i dont cre what they do, they can go to church till they are blue in the face, they can go eat bibles for breakfast if they think it will get them into heaven, but the killing part is where i lump them in with the terrorists
you might want to re-check those history books they have you guys reading down there in vegamite sandwich land. Team USa did not invade cuba. The bay of pigs was but a large group og cuban exiles who attempted to land in cuba, and they got massacred because the USA failed to give them the air support they needed. these cubans had american support, but lame, weak-need support, and it was a flop.
your analagie is a little silly becise there was no muslim nation at the time, or even now, that could possibly threaten the USA in the way you described following an attak.
speaking of hypothetical invasions, i might like to bring up the little remembered fact that it was those same nieve, trusting, nice americans (and I guess you mean to say that we are all a bunch of suckers) who traveled halfway arund the world to get themselves SLAUGHTERED in the stinking jungles of guadalcanal. why did they go to guadalcanal? why on earth would omeone from new jersey or chicago go to a nasty little rat hole like guadalcanal in the middle of nowhere. because that was the only place to stop the japanese advance toward australia. you can think bout that next time you assume that we amricans are all just a bunch of fascist war mongering who are lways wrong about everything. but I guess they leave that out of those austrlian history books too.
[/QUOTE]
I see, o we should be the ones “understanding” them, while no one out there shouts out to them that they should “understand” us. maybe if the terrrorists tried to “understand” us thy would have to find more civilized methods of communication besides slamming jetliners into the world trade center. people were holding hands as thy fell from the 100th floor, i guess that was good punishment for the nasty thuings the americans did at abugraibe and gitmo. oh, wait a minute, when those people fell from the towers, there was no american activities at gitmo or abu graibe. so your cronology is wrong.
so, my australian friend, you keep on telling me of the american outrages against the muslim world prior to 911. OK, please give me one examp0le of something the americans did that would be good reason for some one to slam a jet liner into a skyscraper filled with temp workers and secretaries. go on. jet fuel does terrible things to innocent office workers, and so does tons of concrete faslling on firemens heads. tell me what we did to deserve that, so i can understand why everyone hates us.
enjoy your sushi, because thanks to the USA, you re not being forced to eat it
Buddy
They tried more civil means of communication but we ignored them to the extent that they felt a violent act is the only way we would listen.
Also the attrocities that America has committed on the Middle East as referred to by our Australian friend were not Gitmo and Abu Graibe. The USA has been poking it’s nose around in the Middle East’s business for decades. In one of his tapes Bin Laden listed the specific actions that September 11th was a retaliation for. But we don’t listen to terrorist so instead we make up our own nonsensical reasons why they attacked us such as “their religion promotes it and promises them virgins” or “they are jealous of our freedom” or the overly simplistic one “they are evil”.
It is more imporatant to look at why they hate us, then to just hate them back and try to destroy them. No one benefits from breeding hatred.
I’m still waiting for those specific reasons as to why the terrorists attacked us on 911. not these vague generalities, but solid factual reasons, reasons that anyone, even a boneheaded conservative like me could understand. i want to know what it was that was so awful that would justify what happened on 911.
you can quote bin laden if you would like.
I’m all ears.
believe it or not, I am all ears.
go ahead.
Bud-Litebulb, please do not patronise me because the fact that i am not american an OBVIOUSLY do not have access to any sort of History book that is Valid. Let me just peel the pages away from each other because of all the vegemite stuck in between them, then struggle to read the facts because of all the Fosters stains that have streaked the words… oh no know a dingo’s stolen my history Book!
AS for reasons for the september 11th attack, how about the US giving arms and assistance to both Iraq and Iran during the horrible Iran Iraq war which decimated the nations and wiped out generations of young men.
But is this example to reliant on some sort of compassion that a “bonehead” like you seems to be devoid of- as seen in all your small minded previous posts.
I do not choose to forget history- ie AMerica’s involvement in the Pacific in WWII where many gave theri lives to help stop the Japanese invasion. War has a time and a place- that time and place is when all possible other alternatives have been exhausted. The pre-emptive strike on Iraq has acheived nothing of what it set out to do, has caused excessive death and pain on the civillian population and looks like it will continue to do so for some considerable time.
Bud, also, surely a blood thirsty killer could have some evidence produced against him which then could be used in a fair American judicial trial- not a biased millitary tribunal.
What about the Britons who were released, after a few years of torture, back to the British Govrnmnet then released after a proper investigation. That should show that not all the people in Guantanamo are guilty- although these days America’s version of guilty seems to be different to the rest of the civilised world. I remember it being “innocent untill proven guilty”, how things have changed.
The bay of pigs invasion was sponsored by the US govenment, training was given by the CIA and weapons were supplied to them (cuban nationals) by the US. This war by proxy comes in the same category for me as an invasion by US citizens.
There is no point arguing with you anymore- it is clear that you are never going to change your mind about anything no matter how condemning the evidence. History will be the judge of this situation.
mark