Intelligent Design

Off-topic
1

If you’d like to post a reply I ask that you read the initial, and forthcoming post’s in there entirety beforehand.

Intelligent Design, brings forth an interesting, often over looked question.  Do you believe in a God, or the Materialistic view of there being no God. By God I am not dictating whether this God conforms to one if any currently held dogmatic beliefs, or whether he does, or ever has, intervened with what we consider reality. Or even the possibility, that he created the universe, as a dead shell, and life sprung from it according to the laws of Evolution, or he created man instantly from his infinite imagination, not to mention the fact that he possibly doesn't even gives a damn about us.

These are all conclusions I will allow you to draw, but at a deeper perspective, beyond that of Biology, what we consider physical, and “Solid” which is really a way for our minds to exist in a universe in which matter is mostly empty space, and the fundamental blocks of which are shapeless, dimensionless, fundamentally none-existent pieces of undefined energy. 

Do you believe in God, do you believe, that nothingness, could alter itself to be somethingness. Do you believe the small handful of beautifully mastered formulas, and the calculations required for there existence could be created from nothingness, or do you believe there is a computer hooked up to that monitor? Numbers don't crunch themselves, also I'd like to disband the often portrayed remark by Humanist that many physicists often believe in God because the universe is so Complex. Obviously someone making this statement knowns nothing of Quantum Physics, Relativity, String Theory, and its proponents, In fact the opposite is true, many Physicist believe in God because they see something you do not, a simplicity, a beauty, a universe in which everything can be described by just a few formulas, from the electroweak force, the strong force, and Gravity. The broader our scientifically understanding gets the fewer and fewer formulas we need.

Physicist believe in God not because the universe is chaotic, and complex, but because its elegant, and simple. Only when you consider the universe at a macroscopic level does it “Seem” to be complex, and confusing, this is the world that Biologist amuse themselves with, I amuse myself with that of God.

So I ask you do you believe in a God? Nothing of religious, benedictions you may have, if you’d like to list your beliefs that is fine, whether it is Muslim, Christian or Darwinism. But please remark if you believe in a God or not.

Lastly I’d like to note there is an EXTREME difference between (Darwinism, Evolution), and (Materialism, Humanism) and to apologize for grammatical errors.

2

I believe in both God, and evolution…but every single time I try to explain it to people on these fora, I get very much insulted, so I will refrain from this one.

3

Don’t feel too bad Potter, the bible itself said Man was made from the dust of the Earth, and although few if any religious documents describe evolution, many religious text, are exaggerated, and even religious scholars admit to this.

I’m personally a Christian, this is my own Dogma, and I don’t push anyone to believe in it, although I do try to convert people to belive in ‘A’ God. But I do have problems with the Christian church, namely, the idolization of Jesus in human form, it isn’t something I think God would want.

I don’t believe in Evolution; but I respect and MORE then understand your beliefs. And I think this is because I’m too at odds with many other belief systems. I should just start my own Church, tax exemption here I come.

4

I see the simplicity of it all to be evidence that there is no god. I think God was cognized by people who couldn’t explain certain things, and thus decided that there must be a god. But the more we learn about the universe, the more people doubt the existence of a God.

We don’t know everything yet, though.

5

exafillerctly

6

I believe in the Biblical God who created the world in six approximately 24 hour days just a few thousand years ago.

Check out:

There’s a lot of great articles on there.

Especially this article:
Does God exist?

Also the book by Michael J. Behe: "Darwin’s Black Box: The Biochemical Challenge to Evolution:

~Cameron

7

I disagree…the bible doesn’t say anything about 24 hour days, it just says 6 days. that could mean anything, all it really means is six separate time periods. I believe it means six days where God lives, and there’s a reference in the bible saying that one day where God lives is something like 1,000 years on Earth. so that means the earth was created in six separate time periods that could have each been several thousand years long. and if you ask me, I personally think that making the world wouldn’t be very easy…so I believe that God created everything slowly, and the fossil records where evolution is clearly shown didn’t happen by chance, thats when God was creating and altering everything.
I hope that made sense, though I’m pretty sure it didn’t.

8

I understand what you are saying, it’s a common theory.

The 1000 years arguement has a good answer:
http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/faq/docs/day_thousandyears.asp

If you have time, here’s one artical I found which explains why it is six real days. Not six long periods of time.

Let me know what you think of the articles.

~Cameron

9

I’ve just popped in for a moment from vaticanforum.com where they are discussing the ideal length of cranks on a MUni.

It is not inherently inconsistent to believe in a version of God and also to believe in evolution. If you can accept the idea of an all powerful God, you can accept the idea of a God who chose to invent evolution. Those who argue for an intelligent designer can’t deny that (s)he invented idiots.

(No, I’m not saying that those who argue for an intelligent designer are idiots. Read it carefully. :0) )

The word “Darwinism” is misleading and unhelpful. I prefer “evolution”. Darwin was a scientist, and a fallible human being. He had an important insight, and he proposed the theory of evolution by natural selection.

Like all scientific theories, it has been subject to testing, revision and correction. Not all of Darwin’s original ideas were right - any more than Stevenson’s Rocket was the ultimate in railway locomotives. A “successful attack” on Darwin or his writings is easy enough, but that does not invalidate the whole idea of evolution, any more than pointing out the limitations of the Babbage Counting Engine proves that computers are inevitably unwieldy and inefficient.

So here we have one unfair “tactic”: appear to discredit Darwin, and then claim triumphantly to have “debunked” the theory of evolution.

The related tactic is to try to gain acceptance of the superficially attractive idea of “intelligent design” and then make the massive leap from that to accepting every other tenet of a given set of religious beliefs.

Here’s the problem put very simply:
The religious dialogue:
Q. Who made the universe?
A. God(s)
Q. Who made God(s)?
A. God(s) just is/are.

Here’s the non-religious version:
Q. Who made the universe?
A. The universe just is.

Both have at their heart a simple acceptance that it is possible for something simply to exist for no reason, or to come from nowhere or nothing.

On a simple logical analysis, the religious version adds nothing to our understanding of how the universe came to be. In the middle of the chain of argument is X: an unknowable indefinable entity that cannot possibly be understood, who “just is” and creates the universe for a purpose we cannot possibly understand.

I used the plural deliberately. It is common in this forum and many others for the pro-religion posters to be conspicuously broad minded and refer to Christianity, Judaism and Islam. However, Hinduism is also a massive religion. There are millions of people alive today who sincerely believe there are many gods, each with clearly defined and limited powers. Most of them are good people.

Those who believe in God(s) are often triumphant in their claim that atheists cannot disprove the existence of God(s). Those who reach an atheist position through careful thought often reach the conclusion that if a question is such that it is impossible to prove the answer one way or the other, then it is not a useful question. Those who rely on faith will continue to do so; those who rely on reason will continue to do so.

A more useful question is “How should I conduct myself?”

And not, “How should other people conduct themselves?” At least not until you are (a) very confident of the answer to the first question and (b) absolutely consistent in putting it into practice.

So far, I’ve met no one who has achieved (b).

Even if you are a committed religious believer, and even if your religion has a Bible/Koran etc., it’s still down to you to interpret it. Methodists, Baptists, Anglicans, Roman Catholics… they all use pretty much the same book, but somehow end up with different answers.

10

Isn’t Michael Behe an ID supporter? :wink:

11

I don’t believe the Bible should ever be read as a scientific text because it was written long before modern science came into existence. The creation story in Genesis tells us that God created the universe and provides a context to understand God’s glory. For all we know, the “days” of creation could be nothing more than a literary device to systematically break up the story. It’s not like Moses (or whoever actually wrote the Pentateuch) was there.

12

I believe in the scientific method. It seems a lot of people don’t, but I can accept that because I also believe in freedom of religion. Freedom of religion extends to the freedom of people to believe stuff I think is stupid.

The scientific method suggests that there is some truth to Darwin’s theories, but that a lot of it is still just theory. Not proven, but not disproven either.

I believe in things that can’t be seen or detected by normal means, such as love. The great comparitor. Do you believe love exists? But you can’t see it. Yes I believe in it, and the power that it has. Same goes for hate, lust, fear, and many other feelings. They exist within the consciousness. But they can manifest themselves beyond the person as well…

Certainly this is more than one question, and not necessarily related. I don’t believe in nothingness. Most of the universe is empty space, but we don’t live there so I’m not going to worry too much about it. I don’t know how the universe formed, but I believe it happened millions/billions of years ago, not thousands.

Many physicists believe in God because they were raised that way. They got into physics later. An understanding of physics does not necessitate a disbelief in God, especially if one uses a wide definition such has what has been allowed for in this thread.

I’m not familiar with Darwinism. Certainly, scientist that he was, he was not trying to create a religion or separate belief system. He simply observed a lot of things in the natural world, and attempted to make sense of them. Because his subject matter is biological, it’s harder to have clean, obvious answers (at least on things of this nature).

Previous scientists postulated controversial things in their times as well, and took time for their ideas to be accepted. Things like the Earth revolving around the sun, the world being round, and the possibility of powered flight. People refused to accept these things until it was in their face. Darwin’s theories are much farther from being proven, but I think he was definitely onto something.

He did not attempt to address the question of creation though.

13

In 2 Peter 1:20-21, Peter reminds the reader to “know this first of all, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, … but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.” The Bible itself tells us that it is God who is the author of His book.

God was there; if you believe the Bible. And if you believe the Bible it says that God was the author, who had men record his words.

However, the Bible isn’t a science text book. It’s a good thing it isn’t since science text books change every few years, theories are proved false and new things are added.

Here is a good article dealing with that argument. If you are interested:
‘but the bible’ isn’t a science textbook, is it?

~Cameron

14

I think this is rather fitting (from the hitch hikers guide to the galaxy)…

“I refuse to prove that I exist,” says God, “for proof denies faith and without faith I am nothing.”

“But,” says Man, "the Babel fish is a dead giveaway isn’t it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves that you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don’t.

“Oh dear,” says God, “I hadn’t thought of that,” and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.

“Oh, that was easy,” says Man, and for an encore goes on to prove that black is white and gets himself killed on the next zebra crossing.

In the book…a Babel fish is a highly improbable biological universal translator. It appears as a "small, yellow and leechlike fish. When a Babel fish is inserted into the ear canal it allows the wearer to “instantly understand anything said… in any form of language.”

15

I believe that God inspired humans to convey His message in a meaningful manner to other humans, and so we have the Bible. Frankly, if you’re of the persuasion that every dot and tittle (in the original languages) of the Bible were dictated by God to humans who perfectly scribed what God said, word for word, then I have nothing to add other than to state that I disagree.

16

I do.

God bless,
Cameron

17

So these are the words of God?

(Deuteronomy 21:10-14 NAB)

"When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house.  But before she may live there, she must shave her head and pare her nails and lay aside her captive's garb.  After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife.  However, if later on you lose your liking for her, you shall give her her freedom, if she wishes it; but you shall not sell her or enslave her, since she was married to you under compulsion."
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and this?

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl’s owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

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i definatly belive in God because how could miricals happen today if there was no God we would not be alive because nothing would function and how do you explane the exact tilt of the earth i didn’t just happen

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1 Peter 1:8-9

8Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy, 9for you are receiving the goal of your faith, the salvation of your souls.