Idf... Wtf?

Lets not Forget

Some things that should not be forgotten.

Israel has always agreed to unload any humanitarian aid at the Ashdod port and deliver it to Gaza. The same offer was given to the late “Peace flotilla.”

The last thing that can be said about Gazza is that there is mass starvation going on there.

5 other ships were borded by Israel and there was no serious incident. Only on one ship when paid mercenaries started wielding pipes, knives and chains were there any problems.

Kit you said that Israel killed 19 people. Maybe it was a typo but if it wasn’t then please don’t exagerate the number by 111%.

What is going on with that whole scandal of the BBC photoshoping knives out of the footage?

Erduan the Turkish prime minister told his press that they were playing into the “Zionists” hands by publishing thier cell phone photoes of severly wounded Israeli comandos who originally landed with paint guns.

wait wait wait wait wait,your media outlets says highly trained commandos helidropped onto a ship in an act of piracy/war armed with…paintball markers,
i have reserved myself from this discussion because of lack of geographical knowlege, but ,paintball markers…seriously?
you belive that?

according to some relief organisations (that are not suspected of being Hamas puppets) this looks like … not an exact information (I am deliberatly using an euphemism). but may be any “french doctor” operating in Gaza hospital and talking on TV has not the “whole picture” and is not a source of information as fiable as Israel’s official stand.
knowing that sweet talk could impair our vision how can we be sure of our arguments? help!

Minus the items forbidden under the terms of the blockade.

But what can be said is that a once vibrant, independent economy is now in tatters with a huge amount of civilian infrastructure destroyed in direct contravention of the Geneva Conventions. Four in five Gazan’s are now reliant on outside aid to survive.

Well that’s OK then isn’t it. Like I said… Those who resisted the attacks were acting entirely legally. The IDF was acting entirely illegally. There is no dubiousness surrounding the legality of the actions of each group. One group was using violence as a last resort and in self defence. One was using illegal aggression.

At the time of writing those were the figures that were being reported. There are still six people unaccounted for, but it’s likely they were Israeli secret service folk.

That whole scandal I’ve heard nothing about… Links please.

So you’re saying it was in Israel’s interest not to steal camera and communication equipment from the activists. Why did they then?

That paintball gun tale has been comprehensively debunked. Unfortunately there is a repeating pattern of the main stream media publishing IDF/Israeli claims but then failing to publish corrections if the claims are found to be untrue at a later time.

Here are a few links I’ve found interesting recently.

This piece is fantastic! It’s quite a long read but well worth it.

The following pieces I’ve found useful for understanding the opinions of Israelis, as well as providing the basis for a bit of hope that peace is possible.

click

click

click

The below article should put an end to all allegations that Israel acted Illegaly. I also know that the Israel Navy checket all legal issues beforehand. (About place of boarding and so on. Obviously they did not know about the firefight that would ensue.) Just as Allied navies took on Axis shipping mostly in internationall waters in WW2 and were not breaching international maritime law so Israel did not either. Many people are accusing Israel of of Piracy in this instance. Piracy is defined in the article bellow. Since private enrichment was not the reason for boarding the flotilla there was no Piracy.

People have a way of accusing and running thier mouths (or typing and posting in the internet.) with no knowledge of what they are claiming.

Was Israel’s Boarding Of the Gaza Flotilla a Violation of International Law?

Posted by jeffdunetz (Profile)

Monday, May 31st at 8:58PM EDT

A friend of mine (who I respect) called to tell me that he is done with Israel. He said the IDF violated international law by attempting to board the boat in international waters and the IHH terrorists were justified because they were defending themselves in international waters. Which to be honest, was something I did think of so I did a bit of research. I found a source that indicates that Israel was indeed, within legal bounds when it boarded the boat last night.

According to the San Remo Manual on International Law Applicable to Armed Conflicts at Sea, 12 June 1994:

SECTION V : NEUTRAL MERCHANT VESSELS AND CIVIL AIRCRAFT

Neutral merchant vessels

  1. Merchant vessels flying the flag of neutral States may not be attacked unless they:

(a) are believed on reasonable grounds to be carrying contraband or breaching a blockade, and after prior warning they intentionally and clearly refuse to stop, or intentionally and clearly resist visit, search or capture;

(b) engage in belligerent acts on behalf of the enemy;

© act as auxiliaries to the enemy s armed forces;

(d) are incorporated into or assist the enemy s intelligence system;

(e) sail under convoy of enemy warships or military aircraft; or

(f) otherwise make an effective contribution to the enemy s military action, e.g., by carrying military materials, and it is not feasible for the attacking forces to first place passengers and crew in a place of safety. Unless circumstances do not permit, they are to be given a warning, so that they can re-route, off-load, or take other precautions.

NOTE: the San Remo Manual is not a treaty, but considered by the ICRC to be reflective of customary law.

Also, on piracy: the definition of piracy under the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea, section 101, is clear that piracy can only occur where there are “illegal acts of violence or detention” that are “committed for private ends.” Israeli actions were legal under the law of armed conflict (as evidenced by the San Remo Manual) and in any event, were not committed for private ends. Anyone using the term piracy to describe the Israeli action is clearly not aware of international law on the subject.

Here’s the bottom Line:

•A maritime blockade is in effect off the coast of Gaza. Such blockade has been imposed, as Israel is currently in a state of armed conflict with the Hamas regime that controls Gaza, which has repeatedly bombed civilian targets in Israel with weapons that have been smuggled into Gaza via the sea.
•Maritime blockades are a legitimate and recognized measure under international law that may be implemented as part of an armed conflict at sea.
•A blockade may be imposed at sea, including in international waters, so long as it does not bar access to the ports and coasts of neutral States.
•The naval manuals of several western countries, including the US and England recognize the maritime blockade as an effective naval measure and set forth the various criteria that make a blockade valid, including the requirement of give due notice of the existence of the blockade.
•In this vein, it should be noted that Israel publicized the existence of the blockade and the precise coordinates of such by means of the accepted international professional maritime channels. Israel also provided appropriate notification to the affected governments and to the organizers of the Gaza protest flotilla. Moreover, in real time, the ships participating in the protest flotilla were warned repeatedly that a maritime blockade is in effect.
•Here, it should be noted that under customary law, knowledge of the blockade may be presumed once a blockade has been declared and appropriate notification has been granted, as above.
•Under international maritime law, when a maritime blockade is in effect, no boats can enter the blockaded area. That includes both civilian and enemy vessels.
•A State may take action to enforce a blockade. Any vessel that violates or attempts to violate a maritime blockade may be captured or even attacked under international law. The US Commander’s Handbook on the Law of Naval Operations sets forth that a vessel is considered to be in attempt to breach a blockade from the time the vessel leaves its port with the intention of evading the blockade.
•Note that the protesters indicated their clear intention to violate the blockade by means of written and oral statements. Moreover, the route of these vessels indicated their clear intention to violate the blockade in violation of international law.
•Given the protesters explicit intention to violate the naval blockade, Israel exercised its right under international law to enforce the blockade. It should be noted that prior to undertaking enforcement measures, explicit warnings were relayed directly to the captains of the vessels, expressing Israel’s intent to exercise its right to enforce the blockade.
•Israel had attempted to take control of the vessels participating in the flotilla by peaceful means and in an orderly fashion in order to enforce the blockade. Given the large number of vessels participating in the flotilla, an operational decision was made to undertake measures to enforce the blockade a certain distance from the area of the blockade.
•Israeli personnel attempting to enforce the blockade were met with violence by the “protesters” and acted in self defense to fend off such attacks.
My friend’s objection was a thoughtful one, made out of a respect for the law, however, the laws of the sea indicate that Israel was in her bounds when she boarded the terrorist boat last night.

Since I actually had some free time last night some other answers to issues that were raised in this thead.

In 1917 the country of Great Britain recognized Israels right of existance in the whole of “Palestine” with the Balfour Declaration. Only a few years later in 1922 they carved 80% of this land tract awayand eventually created the country of Jordan in 1946. A country with no history prior to 1922. Jordan is predominaltely “Palestinian” in demographic makeup. Why the british decided to import Abdullah from Mecca to rule over the predominately “Palestinian” population is another story of devious British self interest. Curently the ,Grandson or great grandson, the current king of Jordan is married
to a Palestinian in order to give himself more credibility in his Hijacked kingdom.

In 1947 UN resolution 181 then carved the remaining part of “Palestine”
into half giving the Jews part and the Moslems part. I can’t say that the Palestinians rejected this offer because the Jewish Palestinians (More than half the population.)accepted. It was only the Moslem Palestinians who rejected and instead of a seperate state they got 19 years of harsh Jordanian
and Egyptian rule. Just ask any Palestianian about Black September when the Jordanians butchered tens of thousands of Palestinians in the 70s.

Many people refer to Israel as a colony.
The definition of colony is - Any people or territory separated from but subject to a ruling power. Israel is not a colony because it is self ruled by the inhabitants of the land. No foriegn power rules Israel.

Kit you keep on claiming Israel to be a state dreamed up and planted where it is by imperialists. Any amature archeologist can tell you that the state of Israel existed way before any of the so called modern imperialists existed and even way befor there was a religion called Islam. This is well documented by ancient coins, pottery, writing, scrolls and even Hyrogliphics and Cunieaform.

The Moslems captured a lot of land about a thousand years ago. The captured populations were usually not treated so well. They were usually given the chioce of death, converion to Islam or slavery. So now the shoe is on the other foot. Since noone is forcibly trying to convert them they are already off to a good head start.

How can Israel the only predominately Jewish state in the world get a fair shake in the UN, a body that has about 40 Muslim State Members!? And another approximately 50 European members most of whom either slaughtered Jews for centuries and or calaborated with the Nazis in thier final solution!

Israel is not an aparthied state. It is a theocratic democracy. This means that Religion has bearing. For example in Israel there is no Civil way to get married. You get married by a Rabbi, Priest or Cleric.
The same goes for divorce. (By the way if I were to ever get divorced as a man I would prefer it to be in a Moslem court of law!) It does not mean that one religion has more or less rights than another.
Moslem Clerics get thier salaries from the government just as the Chrisian preists and Rabbis do. This is probably a good explanation to kits remark about citizenship and nationality. I must say that using the word nationality is wrong. The word religion should be used instead. It is probably due to mistranslation.

Quoted from Kit If every population were to go about trying to settle centuries old grievances, or claim ownership of land through violence there would be very few safe places left to live on this planet.
Actually there aren’t many safe places to live on this plannet! Just look at the Balkans, Africa, Kashmir and now Kyrgestan.
I don’t know of too many borders that were not settled by a war or two or more.

I don’t like politics much and just want to fairly get the most out of life as possible. However I will defend my country as any good citizen of any country must. The reason why - because my country Israel protects
my family and myself from Holocausts, Inquisitions, Crusades, Pogroms, Blood liebels and “unfortunate history” asWobbling Bear so graciously describes the calamities of whole populations.

apparently I was not clear enough! sorry:o! my message was this: rancours will not help us build a future. If you don’t stop bickering about whose fault it was to start a war between homo sapiens and neanderthal you won’t live in peace!
I witnessed the after war (I mean WWII) and noticed that though germans and french had much to say about each other behaviour during the war it was more important to build Europe. the same attitude prevailed in South Africa.
Israel will never be in peace if you never stop tracking faults of others. This does not mean that you shall not remember history: quite the contrary! you should learn lessons from history. but if you think that “history tells us that the other is evil” you are doomed.
In fact the only thing that interests me is: what could be a realistic option to build a future together?. Yes constant wailing about villains with guns and rockets is sure interesting (and should not be forgotten) but will not help to build a future.

BTW politics is important: do participate!

this said I find many interesting, and encouraging, remarks in your post. So continue being more positive about the future, every brick is important and not necessarily produced to build a separation wall.

Ongoing Developements

Bellow I have posted two links. The first is a report on Reuters photoshoping out knives and pools of blood from pictures proving that the Turkish peace flotilla was not so peacefull afterall!

http://www.stinkyjournalism.org/editordetail.php?id=769

The second link is an article reporting on Obama warning Erdogan of Turkey that a flotilla probe would be a double edged sword most likely put the blame on Turkey itself and the IHH (The goup that organized the flotilla.)

This reminds me of the story when the intifada broke out the whole world blamed Israel for shooting a Palestinian kid. The whole thing was captured on film. Only a few moths later after the image damage had been done to Israel did a French investigative team report that the boy was actually shot by the Palistinians and not by Israeli soldiers!

By the way what is the story on Amy MacDonald? Her music is absolutely wonderfull!

media manipulaton is, alas, part of our world.
Do you think it is a one way stream? (kindof international conspiracy against Israel).
May be we could enhance this stream by exposing idealistic principles (such as equal human rights), then trying to find realistic ways to make reality and ideas match.

Media Manipulation

I know that in the vast majority of instances media manipulation usually works in favor of underdogs whether they are in the right or wrong. The guy who gets beat by the brutal police is always covered favorably wether he just shot and killed two police officers or if he just happened to be coming back from a late night study session at the library. The business tycoon or mulinational corporation is always going to be slandered against the Mom & Pop Shop and the masses are always going to believe that the young girl was molested, harrased and/or raped by the celebrity.

Western first world countries always get the bad end of the stick when it comes to the media. Countries like America, Great Britian, France and Israel are not liked very much in the world because they are at the top.

Why are there always anarchists and comunist protesting at G8 and G20 meetings. Do they realy believe that total lack of government or comunist regimes can bring more prosperity and rightousnes to the citizens of the world than the Democracies that make up the Develped world?

Hey the media was very favorable to Israel in its first struggling years, when as a recently re-created state that just took in a bunch of hated unwanted refugess it faced a sea of hostility from all of it’s neighbors. However as soon as it got on its feet and won a stunning victory in 1967 and brought its citizens a good standard of living it to left the ranks of the underdog and the favorable media spotlight.

It seems like the right thing to do to put your heart out towards the weak.
However it is dangerous and wrong to do so without looking at the big pictuer and digging a little deeper into the facts and background of the conflict or issue.

last time I heard a whole country complaining about media manipulation was Serbia. I does not fit this picture…
again in a previous post I tried to encourage people from Israel to read newspaper such as El Hayat. You will be surprised to see that many arab newspapers are trying to get a balanced view (even Al Quds al arabi -though the title says “arab jerusalem”-!) I am not pretending they are getting it right every time.
So why not accept introspection and try empathy?: this is not antinomic with being cautious. Accepting one’s faults is probaby one of the path towards peace.
facing the fact that Israel has overdone it in Gaza is not “losing face”… it could lead to understand that overly trigger-happy people are doing a disservice to what they pretend defend (the same applies to Hamas).

Judge Goldstone Retracts his Report!

Just a “little” update. Goldstone has just retrracted his report! A report that vilified Israel for the war in Gaza. He now says that it was wrong and unsubstantiated!

The damage has already been done. The report headlined in countles papers and was in the news for weeks tarnishing Israel as a country. It has undoubtedly given many people a bad feeling toward Israel. Now that it has been debunked, and by it’s author no less, it vindicates the country of Israel but how many peaple are going to have the 180 turn of opinion towards Israel. It is very easy to create an opionion but quite hard to change it.
It is well known that retractions do very little to correct the damage that they have done.

By the way it is interesting to note Judge Goldstones record as a South African judge. He sentenced numerous black to hang during apparthied.

Another by the way, Serbia was not the underdog. It was seen as the big bad wolf. Kosovo was the underdog.

Goldsonte Retracts His Report

Good to know it never happened.

Goldstone Report

I never said that there was no war in Gaza. There was and it is sad. Sad because it never should of happened. There is no Israeli occupation in Gaza so the Palestinians there can’t cry that they are occupied. Hammas was democratically elected my a lage majority, so the population can’t cry that only thier leaders are at fault and they as civilians are innocent. If the population of Gaza had made the goals of building trade goods instead of rockets to lob into Israel there never would have been a war. For seven years Israel showed restraint when rockets and mortars were fired from the Gaza strip. It is sad that Hammas fires its rockets and hides among its population. It is sad that Gaza’s population supports such a regime and uphold such a culture of martyrdom, religous intolerance and zealotry.

The Goldstone Report blamed Israel for deliberately targeting civilains. Now even it’s esteemed composer, who has much black blood on his hands from aparthied times in South Africa, comes clean and says that it is wrong.

Let me ask you Gild - What would you like the world to emulate? The culture of the Palestinians in Gaza who hold in the highest esteem the murdering of journalist that oppose thier views, martyrdom and holy war or the values of the Israeli’s who honor scientist, artists, industrialists, researchers and authors that strive to bring prosperity to mankind?

Unicorn

People who don’t shoot White Phos at civilians.

Let’s start there and take your meandering propogandeering from there.

I retch in anticipation.

Your very own Goldstone just came out and said that Israel did not intentionaly target civilains. Hamas did most of thier rocket firing from within the most densly populated areas. Hell they even fired from within a UN funded school! They should get the blame for any civilian deaths.

Wikipedia states that there are 47 Muslim majority counties in the world. I wonder why Israel the only Jewish majority country is quite often condemed by the United Nations?

Look up Hamas in Wikipedia. Read their charter and goals. Read some of thier statements. Have you ever read any of Israel’s leaders making such statements towards Moslems?

Notice that the big democracies of the world define Hamas as a terrorist organization.

Just out of curiosity how many civilians died in WWII from intentional firebombing of cities? What about the nuking of Japan? Does anyone even dare raise any issue of moral wong doing for those deeds?

A whole war went on in Gaza and 1,400 people were killed. Hamas admits that 700 of its fighters were killed. That is a pretty incredible combatant to civilian kill ratio for fighting that took place in the most densly populated areas.

On October 16, 2009 the former commander of the British forces in Afghanistan Col. Richard Kemp delivered a statement at UN Human Rights Council 12th Special Session. He testified:

“ During Operation Cast Lead, the Israeli Defense Forces did more to safeguard the rights of civilians in a combat zone than any other army in the history of warfare. Israel did so while facing an enemy that deliberately positioned its military capability behind the human shield of the civilian population."

Unicorn

At some point you’re going to have to make a call on Goldstone’s credibility.
You’re either going to hang with him, cause he pardoned your murderers, or you’re going to have to condemn him for “hanging blacks during apartheid” (sic - or sick, your call, and your original comment).

As for Kemp, he admitted never having visited Gaza and that he used IDF and Mossad advisers in Afghanistan, so yeah, he’s REALLY neutral.

Keep believing what you believe, keep killing the innocents, don’t mind me.

Neutrality

Well have you ever been to Gaza Gild? If not then by your own reasoning you have no authority to acuse anyone of murdering anyone else there.

Unicorn

You’re the one who came on here and claimed the mass murder of innocents.

I wouldn’t try n take the moral high ground now, murderer.

Now shut it lad.

Please be polite

Acusing me of murder. Now that is kind of drastic!

Actually it was Mr. Boogyjuice who started this thread.

Usually people do tend to get snappy when they find thier foot in their mouth.

Unicorn