Have the Israelian powers-that-be entirely lost the plot?
How the bejeezus did they think they could board ships in international waters, kill 19 of those on board the ships, injure many more and then use their usual propaganda tactics to explain it away?
It’s sounding like there’ll be a big demo in London on Saturday, and I’m sure there’ll be many more in places not too far from a lot of you… Join them.
If you’re shocked at the disproportionality and down right brutality of the IDF’s actions last night then get out there and show it. Write to your political representatives urging them to end arms deals with Israel; push them to demand your diplomats withdraw from Israel; let them know that occupation, state terror and piracy are not things you want to be paying for with your taxes (as is the case for those of us in the UK & US).
What Israel is doing is nothing short of apartheid. But like apartheid in South Africa it can be ended with help from concerned people from around the world through protest and boycotts. Don’t buy Israeli or from companies that assist the repression of the Palestinian people.
That probably brings us closer to the root-cause of the “troubles”.
The Palistinian refusal to accept the israeli claim on land they considered theirs until somewhere shortly after WWII.
The solution must be diplomatic.
Killing volunteers on a humanitarian mission is not going to “make” the Palestinians accept their claim to statehood.
When Palestinians are second class citizens in their own country, subject to random stops, roadblocks, beatings, arrest and detention, denied basic rights, medicine, food, construction materials - then it’s apartheid.
When there are roads running throughout Palesine that only Israelis can drive on - then it’s apartheid.
When walls deemed illegal by the internation court of justice are constructed through Palestinian towns and universities seperating Palestinians from Palestinians - then it’s apartheid.
When their culture is systematically destroyed through the bombing of TV, radio and other civilian cultural assets - then it’s apartheid.
When they’re occupied and left to fester in the open prison that is Gaza - then it’s apartheid.
When ambulances carrying palestinians are prevented from reaching hospitals by roadblocks - then it’s apartheid.
All these things I’ve mentioned don’t just happen occasionally, it’s daily life under Israeli occupation.
To answer your question of what to do about Palestinian attacks on Israel - you give the Palestinians hope. Hope that they can one day run their own affairs free from persecution. The alternative is what we have now - a desperate people fighting an occupier with whatever means at their disposal.
To put things in perspective - more people were killed on Sunday night on those boats than Israelis by Palestinian rockets… Ever.
When Israel launched operation cast lead last year they were the ones to break a ceasefire, not the Palestinians. In that operation Israel killed over 1000 Palestinians including over 400 women and children…
14 Israelis died.
And GILD - the Palestinians should most certainly NOT accept Israel retaining dominance of all of the land they have now taken. What they have requested time and again is a return the internationally recognised 1967 borders. Any expansion beyond that by Israel has been illegal under international law. If you look at a map of Palestine that shows Israeli settlements you’ll see that Israel has strategically placed settlements on nearly all the decent water sources and fertile lands and connected them all with roads guarded by the IDF, leaving Palestinians with disparate, disconnected enclaves with little ability to support populations and little means to travel between them.
To turn our back on what are perhaps currently the most oppressed people on the planet is shameful. If you listen only to mainstream media reporting of the situation there you wont hear the reality of life for Palestinians… In fact you probably wont hear a single Palestinians voice.
There are two sides to each story… I would urge people to seek out the Palestinian story hidden from us in the West and Israel.
I am a little surprised by your calling Israel an aparthied state.
First of all there has never been a Palestinian state so how could Israel have taken thier country from them? By the way there is well documented history of the state of Israel from over 3,500 years ago.
In the UN General assembly a few years back the Israeli delegate told of how Moses when he came out of the spring looked for his clothes and when he could not find them accused the Palestinians of stealin them. Yassir Arafat immediately shouted “Liars! we all know there were no Palestinians back then!”
The Israeli delagate replied “Exactly, now with that in mind lets continue the discusion.”
Kit - I invite you to come to Israel and see how Moslems live here. (You are even welcome to stay at my house as my guest.) They have the nicest and biggest homes in the country. The Police are afraid to deal with them and give then a wide berth. I n the other hand would probably be lynched in 2 minutes if I ever went into Gaza or Syria or Saudi Arabia!
Just think half of Israel’s population was driven out of Arab counties and had thier houses and property confiscated.
Kind of funny how the whole world asked Israel to leave Gaza and they did. What happened? Hamas took over and started massive shelling of southern Israel. Then Israel puts a blockade in place to limit the influx of weapons it is critisized.
By the way did you see the pictures of all the knives pipes and slingshots that those so called Turkish peace activists had? Even Turkey had Arrested IHH members a while back and had them under investigation.
Kit - Take a look at Gaza Women don’t have rites and if you are suspected of being a member of Fatah, That is Abbas’s party then you are executed without a trial.
Now take a look at Israel - a liberal democratic country with equal rites for women, party power changes in politics every few years, Gay Pride parades and a Muslim minority that shakes in fear that they might be made Palestinian citizens in a land swap as a result of a future peace agreement!
Missing from Unicorn’s response: direct responses to the list posted by Mr. Booglejuice. Is that stuff true or not?
Honestly I don’t know, and am looking for more information from people on both sides of the argument. The theory of “give them hope” seems to make sense based on the information I’ve gathered. What is it like for a Palestinian living in Gaza?
A few people did not like the way I started a previous post here by stating the fact that there has never been a Palestinian state. Correct me if I am wrong but can you name a Palestinian Prime Minister, Presidend, Dictator or king of past? Can you show me a Palestinian Passport? Can you show me any accounts of a Previous Palestinian country?
Please don’t try to talk about the Ancient Philistines who were Greek colonizers and got taken into slavery and dispersion by the Babalonians.
They where Idol worshipers and not the same people who now live in Gaza.
First, I don’t understand why people would not like a fact stated - unless the truth bothers them?
Second maybe the world should start giving states to all sorts of peoples.
Maybe America should recognize the Confederacy?
Maybe Canada should recognize Quebec?
Maybe Poland should give it’s whole northern area back to Germany?
Maybe England should give freedom to the Scots, Northern Irish and Welsh?
Maybe Spain should give freedom to the Basques?
The list goes on and on.
Funny thing is: That if the poeple of Gaza started trying to fix up thier state. Stopped firing rockets into Israel. Stopped ambushing Israeli border patrols. Tried to form the beaurocracies of statehood and made an effort to appease and join the family of Nations Israel would gladly acknowledge them and there would be no blockade or hostilities.
let’s start from this remark: are people living in Israel ready to accept the idea of a confederate state (like Spain or Switzerland)?
that is: whatever the borders no one should have restricted rights because he practices religion X or language Y. Same rights in all domains for everybody: are you ready?
(yes, yes: lots of confederate states failed -even TchecoSlovakia :o- but living together is better than fighting/colonizing, and yes prejudices are hard to fight : that applied to jews in Europe and now to muslims … so you are well placed to know how prejudice is evil).
Wobling Bear - I kind of feel like you are missing the point here.
The Israeli Government and the vast majority of Israeli poeple do not want to be in Gazza. There are no Jews there. A few years ago the Israeli govenment ethnically cleansed Gaza of all of the Jewish inhabitants from Gaza and not one Israeli or Jew now lives there! So no one can say that Israel is colonizing Gaza. The problem remains that Hamas who now rule Gaza want to rule all of Israel and are continuously firing rockets and raiding the border. That is why there is a blockade on them. If they would behave there would be no blockade.
Moslems have equal rites and even better rights than Jews in Israel. They are free to do whatever they want and are excluded from a 3 year military service because the Israeli government does not want to put them in the morally tough position on fighting moslem brethren.
I believe this to be wrong. Americans of German and Japanese decent fought Germany and Japan in WW2. Christian states fought each other quite often.
So when Jewish boys and girls go to the army the Moslems can get a head start on life and finish a college degree!
A Ccnfederated state is usually made up of autonomous areas populated by different ethnicities, tribes, or religions. In Spain you have the Basque region for example. In Israel Jews and Moslems are dispersed throughout the whole country. So a confederation is not an option here unless some major ethnic cleansing takes place.
Technically I should be using the term ‘zionist state’. However, unfortunately many people don’t understand the important difference between the two.
Apartheid regimes discriminate between its citizens based on ethnicity. This Israel does… Would you like to explain the difference between Israeli citizenship and Israeli nationality? If you don’t here is an explanation for folks.
Zionism goes a step further - it not only discriminates between citizens but in fact seekd the replacement of a population with another. I have read many testimonies of black people that lived under apartheid in South Africa, and have visited Israel and the Occupied Territories, many describe the situation of Palestinians under the governance of Israel as worse than that of blacks under apartheid.
That the British and Ottoman empires denied state-hood to populations under their control is no justification for continuing the practise.
Two old men arguing over Bible stories does not infer legal ownership or governance of a land. International law and treaty’s do. If Israel were to respect these it’s my hunch the region would be less dangerous for both Israelis and Palestinians.
I may well take you up on the offer one day but with a caveat that you join me in meeting and spending some time working with Palestinian and Israeli grassroots organisations in both Israel and the West Bank (and Gaza too if we can get in…) to promote an end to violence from both sides. There are many Palestinian groups who oppose Hamas and Fatah, yet if I were to listen to you I might think that every Gazan is a veritable martyr-to-be picking up his paycheck from Hamas HQ.
I’m no fan of either group - Hamas are too violent, Fatah too neo-liberal. Which is one of the reasons why I support the global BDS movement. A movement started by a wide coalition of Palestinian grass-roots organisations with little or no links to either Fatah or Hamas.
Twomore good pieces on the BDS that give a good argument for citizen led sanctions against Israel.
When are you talking about here?
If every population were to go about trying to settle centuries old grievances, or claim ownership of land through violence there would be very few safe places left to live on this planet
Are you seriously holding up the policy of ‘disengagement’ as proof of Israel’s humanitarian concern for Gaza? For those not aware of Israel’s policy of disengagement from Gaza I suggest reading this as an excellent analysis. Then this which details how the Israeli government were forced to admit that the Gaza blockade was ultimately designed, not to stop the flow of weapons into Gaza, but as an act of economic warfare designed to collectively punish the Gazan population i.e. a breach of the Geneva Conventions. this, from The Economist, shows some of the items prohibited from entering Gaza under the terms of the military blockade. You decide whether it’s meant to be stopping weapons entering Gaza.
Also, the blockade is having the material effect of stengthening, rather than weakening Hamas. There is now a thriving black market in Gaza for ‘tunnel goods’ - prohibited items brought into Gaza. Guess who largely controls, and profits from, the goods entering through tunnels. Of course this is without mentioning the radicalising effects the blockade and Operation Cast Lead have had on the ordinary people, and perhaps most worryingly, the children of Gaza. A whole generation of children scarred not only by deprivation, but also shrapnel and bullets, at the hands of the Israeli state is only increasing the militancy of Palestinians. This is counter-productive - unless your aim is to provoke retaliation again and again in order to give justification for further punishment.
QUOTE=Unicorn;1370859]By the way did you see the pictures of all the knives pipes and slingshots that those so called Turkish peace activists had? Even Turkey had Arrested IHH members a while back and had them under investigation.
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Yes, I did see the pictures the IDF so graciously supplied to show how barbaric those aboard the flotilla were. The pictures I haven’t seen are those taken by the people aboard the boats who had their cameras and other communication equipment scrambled during, and stolen after, the attack that took place in international waters.
Under international maritime law if you are sailing in international waters and you are attacked by a non-state actor it is an act of piracy. If the attack is carried out by state actors it’s an act of war on the nation of the flag the ship is sailing under… So interestingly, Israel is now technically in a state of undeclared war agains the US and Turkey. Under both scenarios those aboard the ship being attacked are fully justified in retaliating with deadly force and are protected by international law for doing so.
Pipes, sticks, slingshots and kitchen knives…
Now I know you think the Gaza blockade is doing a great job of keeping weapons out of the hands of those who want to harm Israel, but I’m sure they’d have prepared a bit better than that if they were sailing to Gaza with the intention of causing violence.
QUOTE=Unicorn;1370859]Kit - Take a look at Gaza Women don’t have rites and if you are suspected of being a member of Fatah, That is Abbas’s party then you are executed without a trial.
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And the blockade is helping foster a healthy environment for democratic participation is it?
QUOTE=Unicorn;1370859]Now take a look at Israel - a liberal democratic country with equal rites for women, party power changes in politics every few years, Gay Pride parades and a Muslim minority that shakes in fear that they might be made Palestinian citizens in a land swap as a result of a future peace agreement!
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States claiming to be Liberal democratic countries infer upon themselves an obligation to follow international laws.
Israel doesn’t.
‘Pariah state’ is becoming more accurate, more rapidly. Just a week or two ago an Israeli general said that Israel is becoming less of an asset and more of a burden to the United States…
Read this. An interesting piece on the differing treatment and view of Iran and Israel by the US and the rest of the world.
Here’s the same chap speaking very interestingly on the history and potential futures for the Western involvement in the Middle East.
From your postings here you display the classic nationalist inability to critically analyse your own beliefs and the information they’re based on.
It’s a shame.
I hope some of the links I’ve posted are useful. And yes, direct responses on the points I raised would be good.
p’raps…
There’s definitely a fair bit of latent racism/fundamentalism in Unicorns postings… It’s sadly very common amongst a whole lot of otherwise bright Israelis I’ve met.
The Biblical interpretation of history you’re using to defend some terrible, and very well documented practises by the Israeli state is at best irrelevant, and at worst inaccurate.
When you haven’t addressed claims of fact from others and then brought spurious ones of your own you’re going to meet opposition.
America: States have the democratic ability to withdraw from the union.
Canada: Maybe they should, but they manage to live peacefully together.
Poland: Ditto
England: Is in the process of devolving power to regional assemblies through aprocess of dialogue and engagement. The troubles in Northern Ireland are far diminished, and indeed ancient political rivals ended up running Northern Ireland together.
Really none of the examples you’ve offered are comparable to the situation of Israel and the Occupied Territories. Are any of the would be seperatist states you mentioned living under siege and blockade? Are those they wish to seperate from engaging in activities illegal under the Geneva Conventions or in breach of UN resolutions and other directives?
The funnier thing is that when a state occupies and discriminates against a people they will resist with the means at their disposal and in direct proportion to their levels of desperation.
To expect a population under a crushing blockade and in constant fear of an overwhelmingly superior military to not resist and fight back is ridiculous.
Israeli’s have to make a choice - are they at war with Hamas? If so, retaliation against them is not terrorism, but warfare. If Israel is not at war with Hamas, how do they justify killing so many Palestinian civilians?
Ah… That’s not quite the whole story though is it?
You’re not mentioning how in 2007 the Israeli parliament passed a directive cutting educational assistance to children of parents who had not served in the armed forces by nearly 25%.
I see that as a discriminatory piece of legislation.
You’re also not mentioning how Arab Israeli’s are prevented from studying the same subjects as Jewish Israeli’s. Nor the bulldozing of a university in the occupied territories, or the building of a ‘security’ fence through another.
I believe mandatory military service to be wrong, as it helps foster a national identity that normalises violence.
See the earlier piece I linked to about disengagement.
I also await Unicorn’s reply, which, in all likelihood, will be replete with the hackneyed cliches we’ve grown to expect from those willing to defend an indefensible position.
And a complete, sepulchral, wall-2-wall and total ignoration of anything even remotely related to a fact.
