You say potato…
Wow dude, chill out. It’s just TV.
Ditto!
Hold up! I re-checked the original post and see now that he was a bit misleading there, implying that he uses dial up. In later posts we learn that he’s got an antenna and is riding on an unsecured router, so he’s not limited to the dial up. The premise of the original post seems tainted now.
Huh? I only see one post from Wheel Rider, the first post. feel the light got talking about the wireless antenna. Furthermore, the OP did indeed directly imply that he uses dial-up, when he asked “Is there anyone else out there…”
Ooops!:o I’m getting posters confused, thinking all that was from the same person. Sorry folks, back to business…
…
I saw the thread title and then laughed quietly to myself…
Just because you think it’s not illegal or unethical doesn’t mean that it isn’t. The laws regarding using wifi networks without permission vary geographically, but in some areas it is considered theft. Yes, people should secure their networks, but that doesn’t give you the legal and ethical go ahead. Especially when you are using their network for illegal download.
It’s one thing to pop on someone else’s network when you’re out and about and need to check an e-mail, or to piggy back off a neighbor for a day when your own internet is out, but to intentionally put a system in place to always be using other people’s networks without their permission is quite different.
I know there is a certain pride and smugness in being able to beat the system, but don’t try to justify it as moral and legal.
Ethics are subjective, If you think something is ethical then it is within your ethics.
I don’t see much difference between using someone else’s wireless signal every once in a while and using it as your main internet signal. If you are considering it theft is little theft better than big theft?
Many urban centers are starting to have free wifi (paid by tax dollars) FTLs system would be great for picking that up if you are on the edge of the wifi area. I don’t think anyone would have ethical or legal issues with that.
I for one will gladly use unsecured wifi networks when available. If you are traveling libraries and coffee shops are good bets for finding open networks. Some universities will also allow you free internet access.
I see no problem using a long range antenna to pick up signals that are intended for public use. It would be a different issue though to always be using the network from a coffee shop that happened to be nearby because their network is intended for customer use not general public use.
Fair enough though on the little stealing versus big stealing. But I think the difference though is that when you’re traveling and are using it for 5 minutes it would be acceptible to consider it borrowing, but when it’s regular daily use and you’re using it for torrenting (even if you intentionally slow it down) it’s a completely different matter.
Yeah, I’m stealing, if there is no free lunch
It’s so easy too, like taking Snow from Santa Claus. And about as harmful.
Going all tech is a very poor way to debate this, if you could understand, you would already know, but anyway, some numbers, I will try.
4 to 12 Mb/sec download speed through my pirate wireless, using online speed test sites, that will stuff your pipe for 30 sec.
Adjusting torrent download speeds to max at 100 kb/sec, means I use 3 to .8 % of anyone’s available bandwidth. Since most routers can only handle 4 simultaneous wireless connections , it is not slowing my host down more than about 2.4 to 10 %, if there were several people using that pipe at the same time. This is an unnoticeable slowdown, hence I do not feel guilty at all. Actually I feel a touch guilty for not telling you guys sooner .
Comcast has a monopoly in my area, achieved mostly through bribes and political corruption. If you want to say I have 630 $ in my pocket now, that should be in Comcast’s, because I have been getting free internet since March, I will only shrug. A lot of folks work for Comcast. I don’t expect insurance companies to support socialist stealing, um, health care reform, either.
The same people who are sure nothing can be free will never try bit torrent. Something about downloading a show, then watching it later without commercials, just seems so wrong. As an old ham guy, I have to try new stuff anyway, I can’t be bothered with moral qualms, because I must build the new radio toy. I just get these ideas, and have to check them out.
I am sure I am not breaking the law. The millions of USB wireless cards, sold so far, all automatically connect you to any nearby open wireless point. That is because lot’s of people can’t read or understand manuals, or can’t bother. They are happy that when you plug the router into the cable, the notebooks find it auto, and are online. The default Microsoft setup logs you onto unsecured wireless points as the default.
So if it’s a crime, it is somewhere between tearing a tag off the mattress, and wearing stripes with plaid.
Using something without permission of the owner, whether it effects the owner or not is steal a form of stealing. But even by your numbers a 10% slowdown can not be brushed off as insignificant. Even a 2.4% decrease is significant under certain applications.
Your argument about illegal use of Bit Torrenting TV shows doesn’t help your case as that is also using things without permission of the owner and applies equally. People choose not to do it not because they can’t understand how things can be free, but because they understand the ethics of not using things that belong to other people without their permission and respect property rights.
Excusing your illegal borrowing by blaming corporations for charging too much doesn’t change the ethics of it. It’s not comcast that you are stealing from.
By the way it’s only illegal for the store to remove the tag from a mattress not the consumer. If a mattress seller was intentionally ripping the tags off the mattresses he sells in order to mislead his customers he would get in more than a little bit of trouble. It’s a matter of proving that he was not only doing it, but intentionally doing it for his own gain.
The fact that you constructed an antenna for just this purpose would show your intention and none of your arguments would hold up in court.
Why not talk to you neighbors and ask if they are willing to share their network.
If you’re a pirate, fine you’re a pirate, but that doesn’t make piracy legal or ethical.
Isn’t it a security risk to leave your network open for anyone to use?
If you are on the internet, you are exposed to hackers, and should use firewalls, anti virus, malware scans, updated software, to protect your computer from hacker programs, malware. I left my router open for a year or so, had great speed, and no security troubles. Someone getting on the net using your unsecured (stock default setup) router, just puts them on the net, not into your computer.
Here is where I don’t want to lapse into bullshit. I lack the skills to hack into computers, or secured routers. Therefore, I cannot honestly tell you how difficult that would be. My experience is that default wireless cards (such as the prime Alfa card I linked to), will put you on any unsecured network automatically. If this is a crime, arrest Microsoft, not me ! LOL. Some people are so tech stupid I don’t know what to say anymore. 
Remember the difference between claimed or “up to” bandwidth and the reality of what you actually get. Nobody’s connection is as fast as the theoretical throughput speeds that are usually advertised.
Yaay! I am a big un-fan of Comcast. Not that this hurts them other than by having one less customer, I’m all for it!
It was your choice to jump off topic here, but long as we’re there, I’ll say I’d rather have “socialist stealing” than insurance company Comcast-like control of our healthcare.
Don’t blame Microsoft for that one (for other stuff yes, but…). The same is true for wireless routers. All come set to broadcast their SSID and operate with all security features turned off. The manufacturers sell them this way because it saves them a fortune in tech support. This also keeps the hardware price down. 
Yes. You can download free software that will ping any wireless network and give you the IP address of machines that are using it, and otherwise allow you to read the packets that are being sent and received if people aren’t securing their computers/connections. I’m not an expert on this, but a little bit of Googling will get you tons of information about it.
The thing is you’re not just happening onto someone else’s network by accident because the software made you do it. You intentionally set up your hardware (i.e. a network adapter with a strong antenna on a 20 foot pole) in order to use other people’s networks without permission. There is no accident involved here.
I’m all for multiple people sharing a connection. You should talk to your neighbors and see if they they’d like to split a connection with you.
The thing is if you went and told the people whose network using (on a regular basis and for legally questionable activities) that you’ve been taking bandwidth from them for months. I would guess they’d be upset with you.
If you’re perfectly justified with what you’re doing tell the people you’re borrowing from. Since you claim your usage is justified (legal and ethical) than clearly they shouldn’t have any problem with your mooching.
I assume though you make no effort to alert the people whose connection you use because you know that they would probably secure their network to keep you out.
Also using someones router does put you on their home network and gives you access to their computers. Have you not heard of file sharing. If you both have sharing turned on iTunes, their music will show up. Yeah, they ought to use passwords to You are getting into their computer, whether your intentions are honorable or not. Yeah, they ought to use passwords, but just because someone leaves their door open does not give you permission to walk into their home even if you have no intent to steal anything or mess anything up.
While its true that each individual must come to his own ethical conclusions and beliefs, there is a lot of force in the assertion that there are universal, objective ethical values. Of course, it is (and always has been) a great debate as to the subjectivity or objectivity of ethics.
Correct, and in this case, probably illegal too. Regardless, that doesn’t make it wrong.
If one doesn’t believe that certain media should fall under the category of “property,” there is no ethical objection. There is, however, the threat of enforcement of property rights laws. This threat is minimal - there is no objection to accessing those media, provided one accepts the risk of prosecution.
In my personal, anecdotal experience, pirated TV shows are either usually off-the-air, nowhere-to-be-found series, or in the case of current shows, cause the “pirate” to buy or watch on TV that show in the future…like a dealer giving out a few free hits to get ya hooked.
When some people see someone else getting something for free, they get pissed that they didn’t get it free too, and thus aim ill-will toward the beneficiary. Ethical rationalizations are often only a cover-up for jealousy.
If you brought a magical, self-refilling tray of endless donuts into the office and laid it on the break room counter where everyone’s “antenna” detects their aroma, is it wrong for a co-worker to nab a donut every morning?
I’m inclined to say no.
I totally saw this coming as soon as I saw feel the light’s post about his antenna 
Just because feel the light’s actions may be justified, doesn’t mean his neighbors won’t password protect their networks. First, people often fear what they don’t understand, and most peope don’t understand the innards of wireless networking. Furthermore, they may also just be pissed that someone else is getting something for nothing, even if it is at no cost to them - jealousy.
This whole situation reminds me of a scene from the Canadian series Trailer Park Boys, where Ricky pirates satellite-TV signals for the whole trailer park. When the company vans come to remove the antennae, he berates them for beaming “cancer causing satellite waves” ( 
:p) onto his property and into his brain, and that he is just using what they are already forcing onto his property without his consent.
Thanks everyone for interest in the thread.
To John Foss:
The speed test was done through my pirate wireless setup. If I can pull 12 Mb/sec from this connection, wireless, over a distance, it is assumable that the pipe the router is connected to is at least that fat. So a 100 kb/sec download speed from this router will tap less than 1 %.
General questions
What do I see when I tap onto someones router ?
A. I see the strength of their router signal (how well we are connected), and the name of their router. Also information about if the router is encrypted.
This is very different than being on a Lan . I can’t see other computers that are using that router. But with one click on fire fox, and I am online.
Why don’t I ask permission before I do this?
Because I have no idea who to ask. Most of the open routers have default factory names. Like Dlink . Some are owned by people who have the Tech knowledge to rename the router, but have apparently chosen to leave it open. Mc Public is my favorite name. All I know is the name of the router.
You see, accessing an open wireless connection is the default. This does not give you any info about the wireless router owner, or any connection to their computer. It just gives you internet.
Why do I believe this is legal?
Ball back into your court. Why do you believe it is illegal? It is common knowledge among radio hams that better antennas, in higher places, will span greater distance. That’s all I am saying, get a better USB antenna, and put it high, with an active USB cable (for 16+ distance), and in most developed areas, you can have free internet. The laws against hacking into someones computer do not apply, because you never get close to their computer, you are using their open wireless router. If there is a law against this, please name it.
You actually may have access to their computers whether you are looking into them or not it depends on whether or nit they have file sharing turned on.
Laws vary geographically so can’t directly cite laws. Many places have no set precedents but there are laws under which you could be prosecuted especially since you have shown your intent by constructing an antenna.
Unlike ham radio where the users are intending to freely distribute their content. But just because someone didn’t secure their network doesn’t mean they are intending for you to recieve it. Ham radio operators are trained and licensed wifi networks creators are not.
Whether or not you consider wifi bandwidth and tv programs property or not is arbitray because the law does.
Dlink is probably an uninformed unintentional network, but based on the name the operator of McPublic may be intentionaly sharing. You could locate the owner by using a wifi strength software and wandering around to figure out where the signal is coming from. If you can confirm that McPublic is intentionaly sharing you can remove all question of ethics and legality.
There is a huge difference between “free” and no cost to you.
What you’re currently doing us being a mooch with an air of smugness.