Last month Moshe Arens from Israel wrote that the sole solution for the problems around Israel/Palestine was to create a single “lay” state (devoid of prominent religious connotation!).
I think he is right (both sense of the term: he is from the likoud party ;)).
Now my left brain which is optimist/idealist is conflicting with my right brain which is pessimist/realist: how is this possible? in Europe some unions went sour (Yugoslavia and even Tchecoslovakia 
! - and Belgium is not feeling well either-).
your opinion?
note: I would like this thread exempt of sour feelings: any citizen of the involved countries should not feel accused of “national sins”. Just how to mix idealistic principles and realistic implementations? Humor welcome …
thanks
I think the very last thing the people down there need is unasked-for opinions from people outside who have no clue of the conflict.
And about “national sins”:
the Holocaust is long over and very abstract to my generation, but what urinates me off is that people (not only journalists and the like, but everybody) here feel qualified to give advice to Israel “especially as Germans, because of our historic responsibility” etc. because of this great achievement of our nation. “Oh, there are some left? Let’s see if we can paternalise them!”
And this is why I think your friend should rather discuss his idea with people who would be affected by it.
- no clues? how do you know?
- unasked ? Hmmm sorry but I feel as a citizen of the world and moreover I feel concerned because the conflict sends sparkles all over the place…
- why do you think I incite to “paternalise” ?: I was sorry that members of the forums could feel agression from other members. That’s why I don’t want to hear recriminations (even if justified) but solution-oriented brainstorming. I want concerned people on the field to feel support from the world at large when it comes to creative solutions (OoOps isn’t that “paternalism” :D).
Alright, I’m preconditioned by the usual Israel debates here, so some of this may have been a mere reflex. Those debates take place at a niveau you wouldn’t believe… everybody joins in although hardly anybody knows anything beyond what Tagesschau (the dominant news show) reports. I wanted to prevent this thread to become something similar.
I don’t think I could contribute anything to a “solution-oriented brainstorming”, so I’ll just shut up at this point.
Edit: and about the vocable “paternalisation” - note in what limited context I used this.
Isn’t this the same problem faced by the Shiite / Sunni people as well?
If history has shown us anything about such conflict it is that it will not cease until all members of one or both sides are dead.
…so all I have to say is grab some popcorn and enjoy the show. It may not be something pretty to watch, but it’s gonna keep playing.
well no: prods and catholics ended living together in many countries and don’t care a fig now.
you can also come from a national/religious context and be a good citizen from another: German and Japanese American soldiers during WWII, or Druze citizen from Syria, Lebanon , Israel.
So very different people could become citizens of the United States of Middle East… provided that “tribe fealty” is subdued (to avoid Lebanese-style state). (easier said than done :o).
A jewish lawyer vs a muslim lawyer
“God gave us this land, forever”, the Jew says, and Palin looks in her book and says,“that’s right”. Millions of USA christian types nod in agreement, holding the same book. Like it’s a land title.
Pretty much the end of the story. A real old story, I am not blaming Palin, she is just the new face on the same land grab. It’s not the Jews, maybe 5 % of the vote in the USA, and many of them are liberal, pro-Palestinian.
It’s the USA christians, that insist on massive military aid to the zionists. The zionists must control all the land god promised them, according to Chistards like Palin. It has been written, so it must be done. Black and white, good and evil, the bible or Satan. The Jews must be given all the land as surely as the blowing of the trumpets at Jericho. End of discussion. It is the promise of god to the Jews, and Christards will not back down on this point.
It is to close to the idea of biblical magic. The Jews have a right to claim all biblical lands promised to them in the bible. Or the bible is shit. See where USA foreign aid is directed now? That’s from Christians like Palin, not the USA Jews.
@feel the light: I would rather get ideas about something that can be done.
Yes, my idea of what can be done
It’s not that hard. Like almost all religious problems throughout history, the answer is the same. Build an awesomely huge and expensive building. Works every time. They all (religions that is) love to swear they aren’t into ostentatious wealth. Then they all get dressed up in their finest threads and head to the most fancy, large, ornate building in town to celebrate it.
Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, Krishnas, Mormons, and even the innumerable ancient extinct religions of the past, all shared one thing in common.
They all like to celebrate the worship of their god or gods in an awesome building.
This brings us to the exact cause of the Palestinian/ Israel /Christian problem. They are worried and care emotionally about their buildings.
The Muslim take
The Muslims believe that over the exact spot where Abraham didn’t slay his son, Mohamed went to Heaven in the 6 th century. Then they built the Dome of the Rock mosque over this spot hundreds of years ago. Now the Jews have surrounded it. Christards want to demolish the mosque and let the Jews rebuild Solomon’s ancient temple. When the Muslims say, “over my dead body”, they are not joking. Humor about their devotion to this building has been distinctly lacking.
The Jewish take
Orthodox Jews (good luck generalizing liberal Jewish philosophy) , believe they are the chosen people. As in chosen by the one true god to be given not just the land that the old temple once stood on, they own all of the old lands that in the Torah (Jewish old testament), says were part of the kingdom of Solomon in ancient times. But especially they love that old building. Even though almost nothing is left of it. They worship fervently at the base of part of the remaining foundation of Solomon’s ancient temple. It was a wonder of Solomon’s age. You know, the one built over the place Abraham didn’t slay his son. The Babylonians knocked it down, then The Romans helped to rebuild it later (it is this second temple that Jesus saw, if he really was there then). Then the Jews pissed off the Romans, who wrecked the second temple. Then it was a lot of rubble during the middle ages and crusader wars, until the Muslims won and made a grand mosque there hundreds of years ago. Then the Jews came back in 1947. A practical people with enough war on their plate already, they demanded access to Solomon’s ancient wall. Muslims were left controlling the Dome of the Rock mosque, so as to avoid offending the Muslims as much as possible. Dreams of rebuilding Solomon’s temple, on that spot, have been put on hold for now. The Jews are a pragmatic, patient people, not given to apocalyptic delusions. They have waited a long time, and are ready to wait longer to get that building back. Almost feigning disinterest, some Jews believe the Ark of the Covenant (an ancient magic box made for Moses that contains the original 10 commandments, written by the hand of God), is buried in the ruins under the first 2 Jewish temples, now topped by the Dome mosque. It was lost to the Jews when Babylon sacked and destroyed the first temple. The Babylonians left no record of finding the Ark box, many Jews think it was buried deep beneath the temple as the armys advanced. That is why they don’t want to speak of it. If it is still there, it would be best not to say you think it is, lest someone else try to find it. So there is a huge Jewish attachment to that spot, and the old building.
In summery, the Jews want to build a great building where the old temple stood, and also many hope the Ark box (not Noah’s Ark, this was a portable chest with poles on the sides carried by 4 men), they would be so happy to dig up the Ark box.
The Christian take
90% not so hard core about that building in that spot. Sure, it is the site Jesus pissed off the money changers ( in the second temple the Romans built over the ruins of Solomon’s).
Still, Jesus was kinda laid back and more into the outdoors. He walked around to a lot of places in the holy land, and was more of an outdoor street performer. Oddly, despite his fame, important sites, like his tomb, where his cross was erected, his pulpit for the sermon on the mount, where he walked on water, these sites are unknown now. The location of any buildings where he spoke are unknown, except for the 2nd temple (since destroyed). These are the most important sites in Christianity, but Christians got tired of arguing over which place were real. Claims are still being made for shrouds and places, but after centuries of inter Christian warfare, there are no places they agree on anymore. Except that one place where Abraham didn’t kill his son. Somehow, neither the Jews, Christians or Muslims lost that story or it’s connection to that specific place.
IMHO opinion, the real reason the site of Solomon’s temple is so revered today is that Solomon’s temple was mega huge and splendid. It’s ruins inspired awe and envy. It was that cool. History followed the most splendid building of it’s time.
Part 2 a bit later
Solomon’s temple on that spot, take 3
Or make that 4. Solomon’s temple should be rebuilt near the dome of the rock mosque, which must not be destroyed IMHO.
I am seeing a huge splendid place. There is only one door in, and it will be into the grandest hall ever made.
From there, there are 4 choices. To the left, you follow the path the Muslims have made. They will design and staff that part of the building, and when you go out the back door you will be at the front door of the dome of the rock mosque. The Muslims will be proud and happy.
Take the middle hall , and you will go through the Jewish part of the building, witnessing the Jews having rebuilt Solomon’s temple. Going out the back door, you will see the wailing wall. The Jews won’t be all that happy, but it’s ok, they are used to it.
Take the hall to the right of the Jews, and it’s Christ and all that. Expect it to look better than Christmas to a 5 year old. The Christians will go all out to make their part of the building outdo the Muslims and Jews. Go out the back door and you will see something Holy, like a mountain of olives.
There will also be a 4th door , not a hall, just a door. A door in the grandest hall ever built by man. For the people that didn’t want to leave through the other 3 doors. The Hindus, atheists, they can just walk out the east door if they want. After all, they are just here to see the building, not to learn why men have fought over it since the time of Abraham.
@feel the light: that is creative thinking ! (did not thought about that before!:p)