Are you a carbon chauvinist? In submission to scientific authority?

Not all religious authorities foment hatred, but scientists are one religion that does.

Those in submission to scientific authority tend to be “carbon chauvinists” (google the term), which is part of the teachings of “science.”

With regard to life on other planets, they want to flush it down the toilet and pretend it doesn’t exist, just the way Earthlings hide the elderly, the poor, the incarcerated, and everyone else they wish to pretend does not exist.

Sociologist Philip Slater had a term for this. Anyone know it?

You sure love to make your generalizations, Billy. What are you trying to accomplish?

We could debate carbon chauvinism here, but instead, you have to tie it in to religion, submission, sociology, etc. Why must you do this?

You’re discouraging a free and open discussion when you start off with such constraints.

Here’s the original Carbon Chauvinist, and some life from other planet.

Feel that mental slavery? None but yourself can free your mind!
–Bob “BillyTheMountain” Marley

Yes.

Yo; Science ≠ Religion

Silicon will work (as pointed out on Star Trek, a well-known authority) except that the bond energies are all wrong for terrestrial temperatures. And this “submission to scientific authority” thing, that sounds kinky. I think I’m in the wrong lab.

Who’s “they”. Everybody I know, and I know a lot of Scientists, just want to see some evidence.

Yo; Christianity ≠ Religion

They are both subsets of religion/belief systems.

Just the use of the term terrestrial in this discussion is chauvinist.

Yeah! How many flying saucers does it take to convince a “scientist”? How many alien abductions does it take?

When something is outside your belief system/religion, you always find another explanation.

No, Science is entirely different. It does not require faith or belief in a God or supernatural power.

Wow, now I see why those Fundies get upset with you. I was just making a point about why people seem to focus on carbon, it works in the environment that people currently live in. Other forms could certainly be possible.

It would take only one, if I actually saw one, which I have not. Nor am I aware of any objective evidence of them, or alien abductions. I don’t say they are impossible, just that I have not seen evidence.

It can also be uspetting when someone disses one of your cherished ideas.

Just one - of either - verifiable, of course…

…and we’re still waiting for it.

Rantz
Science-minded Skeptic
(Geek by trade)

Billy really enjoys poisoning the well in any discussion. We could name him BillyPoisoningTheWellOnTheMountain.

Now that we’ve digested the poison (thanks for formalizing that concept, Mr. Childs) we can get to the meat of the discussion… you’ve raised some excellent points, Mr. Mountain!

Your flying saucer example is a hot topic, and for a good reason. The signal to noise ratio on flying saucer reports is off the scale. There are so many faulty, flawed, biased reports out there that it is difficult to make sense of any of them. Same goes for Bigfoot and Nessie sightings.

As another poster noted, all it takes for the “scientific community” to open their hearts and minds to the subject is one definitive, verifiable, reviewable (and thoroughly reviewed) occurrence. Just one.

This is one of the cornerstones of modern science: peer review. This allows us to have many perspectives on a particular experiment / observation. Unfortunately it seems most UFO events involve one half-drunken person with a history of mental instability. What gives?

Okay, here you’re poisoning the well again. There’s some deep thought in that statement, once the poison is extracted.

Let me try and rephrase that:

This seems like simple human psychology, though I’m no expert here. The human mind has to rationalize its experiences in order to incorporate them. How does one describe, for example, the taste of an orange? They need to experience other things that are sweet, bitter, juicy, pulpy, etc.

So… how would one describe a non-carbon lifeform? With nothing else to compare it to, yes, one would be in a quandary… so they’d have to build an explanation based on their experiences. An open-minded person would realize such an explanation would have its limitations, so only those who’ve experienced non-carbon lifeforms would have any real knowledge of such things.

Without getting into metaphysics, let’s just say one is limited by their senses and past experiences. At the same time, however, one can work around those limits by keeping an open mind… this is a hallmark of a true scientist.

When doing his ground-breaking work in particle physics, Niels Bohr first described the atom as a “plum pudding,” having nothing else to compare it to. With time, that model was refined by himself and other scientists, until we have what we know today.

At first, strange concepts are difficult to relate, but with open minds and hard work, they can be formalized to the point where most can understand them without having direct experience.

Man, Billy, I’m going to have to go in for dialysis if I keep digesting all your poison!

Well said. I am reminded of this quote

Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from Magic - Arthur C. Clarke

John,

Did I? [Poisoning the well is a logical fallacy where adverse information about someone is pre-emptively presented to an audience, with the intention of discrediting or ridiculing everything that person is about to say. Poisoning the well is a special case of argumentum ad hominem.]

To whom?

Back it up, please. As you can see, you’ve gotten everyone on your bandwagon, but they don’t really know where you mean to take them.

Peer review by a jury of the converted fundamentalists, right? How about peer review by a panel of people who have experienced alien abduction? Not good enough? You’ve invalidated them out of hand? Huh?

Peer review is to science what “the Bible says so” is to monotheism.

Love you all!

Billy

PS to John: You committed the

, but I still respect you!!

My bad. I now realize that I engaged in the same fallacy myself in accusing you of poisoning the well. It was just an ad hominem argument and did not address any specific points and only served to now bias all readers against your curious equerries. I apologize.

So, are you saying there is no such thing as a godless religion?

Science requires faith in the scientific method, the scientific community, and a good amount of prevailing order in the universe.

But of course! Peer review wouldn’t be effective if, for example, you had a bunch of meterologists reviewing a paper on gene therapy… you need experts in the field to do the reviewing.

Now, who are the experts on alien abduction? This is where things get sticky… it’s going to be tough to prove one is an “expert”. I don’t even know how one would define expertise in that, erm, field.

Again, I do not see WHO I made an ad hominem argument against, and I’d love for you to back it up.

ad hominem arguments are not designed to bias peopel against the person who makes them (ie., me). if there is a term for that, it’s not ad hominem argument.

billy

Odd that many scientists have FAITH in the existence of LOVE, despite it being a phenomenological experience some have never had [GOD is LOVE]. They seem to pick and choose. Personally, I never get angry, and I don’t believe anger exists. My neighbor has never experienced love, and is cynical, not believing in LOVE. Many neighbors have experienced GOD, but some of those who have not deny the existence of GOD.

Scientists stack the jury–it’s not a jury of ones’ peers–not truly peer review.

Who else is better able to assess the validity of alien abductions than those who have experienced it?

But in the Church of Science, having been abducted by aliens is grounds for excommunication. [Scientists further victimize the victims in this way] It’s an oligarchical religion. The Church is the university or research lab, and the charitable fundraising is unbeatable, cuz they get TAXPAYER $$$$$!

billy

True. But anyone, even a meteorologist or an alien abductee, can become such an expert. All it
requires is years of learning and experience. Equally, one can become an expert in the phenomenon
of alleged alien abduction.

The difference is that gene therapy is a scientific endeavour. It involves falsifiable propositions,
theories that explain the observations and generate testable predictions, control data, repeatable
experiments, a readiness to discard hypotheses for which counter-examples are found, and all the other
traits that characterise a systematic and uncompromising search for knowledge. The standards of
scientific evidence required are somewhat higher than for faith positions and other dogma.

Peer review is not some pseudo-intellectual, post-modernist activity in which like-minded people decide
agree with each other that black is white. It is when propositions are held up to scutiny by skeptics
to see if they are justifiable given the evidence presented in support, to see whether another researcher
making the same experiment would obtain similar empirical results.

Alien abduction stories, when held to this level of scutiny, turn out, on the evidence so far presented,
to be a bunch of anecdotes from a lot of attention-seeking sad acts who need to get out more. Most
‘experts’ in alien abduction appear to avoid this kind of scrutiny. Why is that? Credible evidence has
nothing to fear. I’ve often wondered why it is that aliens would travel across the light years in order
to insert anal probes into (mainly) Americans. As Carl Sagan observed, they seem woefully inept in biological
matters, considering their likely level of technological development. This also needs to be explained.

When people make extraordinary claims, they must provide extraordinary evidence - none has so far been
forthcoming, or scientists would be all over it like fleas on dog. We now move to the claim that the
evidence is there, but has been suppressed by a global conspiracy …

Alien abduction seems to be basically just another example of religion, an interesting social phenomenon, but
ultimately disappointing and futile. Humans have a depressing propensity to perpetuate such things.

Al

I agree with most of what you say, but science relies on the dogma that the methods of science are valid. “It just seems to work” is not the same as “There is absolute proof that the scientific methods were/are/will be valid.” “It just seems to work” still requires an element of faith. Scientists are like-minded in that they all agree that the scientific methods are valid.

I’m a believer in science, are you? :slight_smile:

No. Wikipedia defines dogmatism thus: “Dogma is the established belief or doctrine held by a religion, ideology or any kind of organization, thought to be authoritative and not to be disputed, doubted or diverged from.”

Scientific methods are themselves subject to continuous criticism, dispute, doubt and review. If something better were found, it would be adopted. Some individual scientists can be dogmatic - they are only human. Some theories going against the prevailing wisdom might be ignored (or worse) and then later turn out correct (the bacterial cause of stomach ulcers is an example - BBC NEWS | Health | Nobel for stomach ulcer discovery). However, no one is burned at the stake for the ‘heresy’ of questioning science, and ultimately the overall enterprise of science is self-correcting.

These are not characteristics shared by alien abduction, ley lines, homeopathy, Creationism, or any of the other mumbo jumbo that is currently threatening to overwhelm the legacy of The Enlightenment.

You are essentially asking whether I “believe in” rational thought. :slight_smile:

Al