Leo, that is the freestyle hub… You also seem to have your wheel laced wrong? 
Looking at the other thread, that lacing pattern is such that you should not be surprised your hub broke. In addition, Marco has already said that there have been some problems with the flange design and they are addressing them, so this is nothing new, especially since you were misusing the hub.
I am interested in seeing pictures of your Mad4One 6 pin cranks “with play.”
Am I seeing that lace pattern correctly? Is that a “2-cross”??? Shouldn’t a 20" wheel be 3 or 4-cross?
Yoo Leo that is nuts man! I have yet to see a hub do that 
At first I thought you just broke a spoke but when I saw the pictures I freak out!
That would be very interesting if the lacing caused such failure like that in a hub. I have seen spokes broken in the reinforced hubs (ill take some pictures later to show the difference between a normal hub and the reinforced ones). I am not sure how the freestyle hubs are made but it looks like that they are made a lot differently if that happened.
I would also be curious to see the cranks to, were your pins deformed by any chance? That is the only time I have seen the cranks have any movement with mad4one cranks.
Reinforced ergal street and trial hub. I have never saw hub flange failure on these hubs before.
@Leo
Also the reason for your 6pin cranks moving on the hub is because the hub was too small. Im pretty sure that all the 6pin hubs are larger in diameter than all the standard ISIS hubs unless marco said differently.
I’m sure that the weight of TWO people on the uni also contributed to the hub failure!
That looks like the chromoly version. I’ve only seen the Ergal (7075 aluminum) hub in the natural silver color. Also, I believe that the Ergal hubs have a smaller diameter axle hole.
That lacing exerts way too much unnecessary tension on the wheel. To get the same results as a 3 cross or 4 cross pattern you have to tighten the spokes a ridiculous amount, putting way too much tension on the flanges. Think about it. when you pedal, you turn the hub. In turn, the hub exerts torque on the spokes to turn the rim. When is torque maximum? When the spokes are tangent to the hub. With 2 cross or 1 cross or whatever that was, the angle approaches 180 degrees and the spokes must be exponentially tighter to transfer the same amount of torque from the hub to the rim than if it was laced properly (3 cross). I’m guessing that the spokes must have been tightened by a machine, because the spokes literally pulled the flange off. WAY too tight. Terry, lace your wheel 3-4 cross and I think you’ll be good. 
That was NOT a standard or well-thought-out use of any hub.
Edit: Terry, that’s the ergal reinforced hub. You can tell because it’s 6-pin (instead of 10 pin ISIS) which are only produced in ergal. The increased diameter that’s made possible by the 6 pin interface makes it much stronger. You can buy them in any color you like.
Ok that explains it. And of course, the reinforced hub wouldn’t work with the ISIS cranks I’ll be using (not-M41). And since there won’t be any impact forces or radial lacing–with someone on my shoulders 
--the hub should hold up fine for my purpose, as Marco told me. 
Luckily, in all my years of riding, I’ve only had one hub failure. It was after probably four years of hard use, and it broke at the flange, where those little infamous KH “cutouts” were, which made the hub inherently weaker by creating open spaces in the flange, very close to the spoke holes. At first, very small cracks began to appear until one day, metal fatigue finally had the last word!
Also I like to tell in close advance of this event (in the hours and days before) I though I heard spokes breaking a couple of time, but when checking all pairs I couldn’t discover anything, no saw anything odd, while being fully convinced hearing something was wrong.
The breaking must have took place is stages, which is a good thing. Better than ti that usually breaks suddenly in once.
Also I think the fatal factor (straw that broke the camels back) might have been the freezing cold temperatures.
That’s depends who’s ridiculous opinions you repeat for a a fact, without thinking for yourself, or more important; experiencing for yourself.
I’ve been riding that pattern for over 19 years. Did many pair stuff. I never encountered such failure before, while doing MUCH crazier stuff than just riding.
Semcycle assembles like this for almost 30 years. AFAIK never any such alike failure.
But; it’s not the pattern that is the problem…
if you repeat the combination is wrong, then I agree (with my own words), especially when finally admitting these hubs are not strong enough for me because of the flange being to small.
But not because the “lacing is wrong”. Why is it wrong? Because the hub can’t deal with it, not because the pattern.
In your previous paragraph that was a question, now a statement. But I hope you are more wisely repeating my opinion now.
If you read carefully, then that hub size and material combination is such that I myself was not surprised we broke it: I predicted that myself in the same thread in advance.
Although the hub design doesn’t fit with me, I don’t blame Mad4One, which is still my top 3 of prefered hubs, but after Semcycle and after Exceed.
Don’t be surprised to see me dropping ISIS for that.
I do not wish to defame Mad4One, which is pushing the weight factor, on price of strength, however still also offers more strength because of the lack of welds. And not unimportant: incredible precise! Therefor an excellent hub. But for us with a limit I dislike, but for you this is all irrelevant.
I remember very well my very first conversation with Marco.
It pleases me to hear he indirectly seem to admit I was right.
Although I still would like to see that Facebook statement exactly quoted.
No, you see that incorrect; it’s cross 1
No it should not be different, at least not for us, but for your type of riding, I guess yes likely.
IMHO it makes nicer unicycle wheels. I was in doubt to try cross 1.5. But if a hub now suddenly cannot deal with that anymore, then the hub is not good; not the pattern. The unicycle is serving us, not opposite.
Ha, sounds like you have the same spirit about breaking stuff
When listening to the video you can even hear parts hit the ground!
I wasn’t pissed at all, only about losing practise hours.
Further I’m happy to went trough this on exactly a very critical position, and being able to deal with it. In the video you can see my partner instantly received the message trough my muscles. A sudden blocking wheel and breaking pedals are my biggest fear while doing risky stuff.
I cannot recall I’d broke one single spoke in that hub. Ever.
Using the Italian Alpina Raggi (sold under the BMX label of Pr1mo).
OK, for the record, I didn’t knew this model now seems to carry the label freestyle. Back then it was the trial one (light, Ergal), and the ChroMo one (heavy), meant for freestyle. I’m not available on Facebook for sport-unicyclists and alike, so I missed the memo. But just to set the record straight;
CroMo = reinforced?
Ergal = freestyle?
Why not using the manufacturers terminology/naming …?
That’s minimal visible. But freaking annoying, as it makes the cranks move (only a bit, but when doing pair acrobatics pretty scary).
I showed it confidentially (on personal basis) to Olaf, however my partner and I do not wish to disclose the circumstances when this occurs publicly to anyone else (nor to anyone of Mad4One). Ask me again after next UNICON, if you haven’t find out during.
But I’m willing to let you hear the sounds (in slow motion) of that skill, you can count the number of pins squeeking.
That problem is entirely solved by eliminating the pin system.
For you pins are a good thing, I do like them, it is smart and I think very good, though in our case they are not an option, although a double amount of pins probably would have worked better.
Having a 2nd look at the pins, I now notice that the traces of wear are only on one of the two surface parts that made contact.
Further the pins were extreme tight (I’m happy I finally got them out using long/strong pinchers patience and some luck). I was very surprised to hear people could remove them without tools.
Again; these were prototypes, so also here I do not call this “bad failure”, but “acceptable failure”.
I think it’s the pins being to soft. Maybe the sizing was wrong.
That I’m sure to!
It depends on what you desire. For you yes, for me no. And an old fashioned freestyle hub never had any problems with that (nor doesn’t require an overstressing tention, which the narrow flanges do).
LOL, yes, I think so to.
The difference between the “reinforced hub” vs the ergal hub you were using is that it has the standard ISIS parttern. These hubs were created early in the prototype stage so I am not sure what they were called then. The reinforced hubs are now using 6pins vs the standard ISIS pattern, this makes the hub stronger. Thus coming up with the name “Reinforced hub”.
Ergal and Cromo is referring to the material that the hub is made out of. The strongest hubs will always be the cromo hubs. At the moment most prototype hubs are made out of ergal and use the 6pin pattern. The reason that Mad4One does this is because it is much easier for them to make a hub out of ergal vs Cromo and making small changes is also easier since ergal is softer than Cromo.
Then about cranks it sounds like that there was something wrong with the sizes of diameters. Every mad4one crank I have been able to take off by hand with no issue.
That is good news to hear and see that your partner and yourself were not hurt in such a failure. That is the most nerve racking part about using prototype parts, you are never 100% sure if failure will occur or when it will occur.
Some interesting stats on 7075 (Ergal) aluminum. I do wonder why M41 decided on such a small diameter flange. If it was purely for aesthetics or something else. And this discussion on large vs small flanges is very interesting, and could provide some clues to my rhetorical question above.
Main reason why M41 chose the size flanges that they did was purely so you can get spokes easier. I have taken my wheel to the bike to get spokes rolled and they dont have to special order sizes for them.
Sure, the technical name is “Aluminum” hub. But now that Mad4One makes two ergal hubs, we differentiate by saying “Freestyle” and “Reinforced.” If you look at the “Typical Use” under any of the aluminum hubs, you will see freestyle. That is why it’s called the freestyle hub. Both hubs are made from the same material. The cromo hub is still the cromo hub.
I have no idea why you would choose to lace your wheel like that. However, it seems awfully vindictive for you to subject your hub to something that you knew would break it, for the sole purpose of posting a video titled “Mad4One failure.” So yes, you do appear to be “defaming” the hard work of Marco and Olaf for no apparent reason.
Edit: Also, small flanges save weight. I can guarantee that it was not for purely aesthetic purposes.
P.S. - Kaito Shoji took 3rd place in Unicon and 1st place in Japan riding mad4one. And he managed to do it with the extreme handicap of a traditionally-laced wheel. 
Sorry, when I started to use that 19 years 11 months and 2 weeks, not with that in mind. You start spewing too much bullcrap per sentence, and I have better ways to spend my time, than to correct your posts that start with “I have no idea”.
I’m just preparing my other wheel to practise tomorrow, this time a ti hub, well-fitting “natural” ti spokes, and even ti nipples. The weakest part now is the threading.
While disassembling it became even more clear the fatalities are exactly how Marco and Olaf predicted it independantly of eachother:
Before the reinforced came out Marco told he disliked the small space between the eyes, which are like “mail-stamps”. Actually on mine’s “good” side at least another 2 were cut there also. That is what broke first; and so at least 10x before one outer edge broke!!!
Looking at the new reinforced model that “problem” is addressed twice; either the diameter is bigger or the holes are smaller, and the “outer edge” space (above the eye) looks bigger to.
Olaf predicted the other part; Ergal is not good at holding permanent tention forever. He predicted that in my setup it would break after 3 years. I expected it earlier.
For that reason you can’t have 20 years (or lifetime?) guaranty as my previous heat-treated CroMo freestyle square hubs use to have.
Yury Shavro & Diana Aleschenko used cross 2 when they won gold at Cirque du Demain. I account that level far beyond any of the Japanese freestyle riders, of which none ever came to that same level. So if you truly wish to make emotional choises, simply go for the lacing method of your role-model and your unicycle will make you instantly as good as them, right?
Bytheway at the mentioned competition I saw at least two 48s radial wheels used by two female top riders of team Japan. I guess they must be losers, right?
Yes, indeed, thank you.
Last weekend me and a friend were invited by nobody less than Joseph Bouglione to come to Napoleon’s Cirque du Hiver in Paris, I met a previous French acrobatic partner, and this disciplined Czech juggler. Her cousin was the one who teached me the basics of unicycling. Her uncle was part of an acrobatic unicycle troupe. He once broke a chain, felt from his tall unicycle, got a pedal in his spinal cord, and later ended in a wheelchair. The most fatal unicycle accident I know of. Meeting her last week reminded me that again. So anyway I’m not too keen on experimenting while having other peoples health at risk. This was tolerable, came on the right moment, build my confidence and is a good experience to take along.
No errors = nothing learned. And to find limits you have to go over them.
One lesson learned for the future:
when you think you broke a spoke, but can’t discover any, then look twice at both flanges!
Ergal is defiantly not a material that is good for a long time. It is extremely strong but like all aluminum over time it will eventually have failure. Marco and Olaf have told me repeated times this same thing. Mad4one isnt trying to make parts for every rider out there but for riders that are wanting high end parts that are not available anywhere else. Sadly the best way to test parts are to give them to people and see how they hold up in the long run. I have heard about failures of mad4one parts but they are ALL RECORDED and improved upon. I will agree with Julia and others that the lacing pattern was maybe not the best idea but it was good you did this. There is now more data about how the hub does with different lacing patterns and hopefully the issue will be fixed so future riders can lace their hubs and rims however they want.
That is a very chilling story to hear about your friend on the giraffe. One of the worst accidents I have heard to come from unicycling 
I would be very interested to hear how the Ti spokes work for you. I have broken only one spoke in my entire riding career and have been thinking about making such an investment.
Though that could be an extremely long time - it all depends how much stress you put it under (I’m using stress in its technical sense there - it’s a term expressing the force per unit area of a material, and is what material strength is expressed in terms of). Plenty of aluminium parts in use which see low stress levels and have very long lifetimes. For example almost all high end bicycle hubs are made from aluminium, and they typically survive for decades - in fact I don’t think I’ve ever heard of a bicycle hub failing due to fatigue when used as designed. So given the forces on a unicycle hub aren’t orders of magnitude different, it seems there is no reason why it shouldn’t be possible to design one of those in aluminium which never has a failure of a spoke flange - provided that it is used as designed, which means no radial or 1x lacing unless the hub is specifically designed for that (bicycle hubs typically specify if they are certified for radial lacing, and those hubs have more metal in their flanges - I’ve seen failures of radially laced bicycle hubs which were not designed to be used like that). Of course where a unicycle hub does differ is that it also has a crank spindle, and it is this where it seems it is not possible to keep the stress levels low enough using a standard crank interface.
Before anybody pulls the “unicycles are different” card again, most unicycle cranks are aluminium (I’m assuming including those used by the elite riders posting on this thread, some of whom put extremely high levels of stress on their components), and whilst there are some failures of those, it’s not a frequent occurrence.
Oh, and something I meant to post earlier:
Leo, I am not saying that a 3 cross pattern is superior to radial lacing. I am just noting that freestyle riders can be successful with a wide range of spoke configurations, and therefore I don’t believe that it was necessary for you to use a 1 cross lacing pattern on this hub.
I will reiterate what I said in an earlier post; your actions are needlessly malicious. As you yourself have stated many times, you KNEW without a doubt that using a Mad4One hub in this way would cause a breakage due to the small flange diameter. Yet, you did it anyway, and then proceeded to advertise it as a “Mad4One failure.” The only reason I can imagine you would do this is to convince others that Mad4One hubs are not high quality or durable, while in fact you were just using the hub improperly in a way it was not designed to be used. Looking at this sequence of events make it clear that you are trying to undermine the hard work of Olaf, Marco, and everyone involved with Mad4One.
I will leave the engineering discussion to aracer, adelman, and those more knowledgeable than myself on the Exceed hub thread, but you have not yet presented an argument addressing why you needed to use this lacing pattern. When I stated “I have no idea…” I was hoping that you would explain why, since I can obviously not read your mind, but your response was as condescending and uninformative as usual.
Does anyone know if the 100mm M41 aluminum hub takes 14g (2.0) spokes? The website says the spoke “hole” diameter is “2,9”, with that “comma”, so I’m not sure of the size.
