Schlumpf hub servicing

[Nurse Ben]

ps: Nurseben- Considering how much your opinion on gear has changed as your riding has developed- I don't think you could honestly expect major manufacturers to alter their designs on your latest whim.

It is true that in my 3 + years of unicycling my preferences have evolved, but my evolution is not unlike the evolution of most riders in that preferences change as skills change. But my skills did get to the point that a Schlumpf was the next step, so what I'm saying is that if a mfg does not pay attention to their entire constiuency, then their product will not be as accessible/usable, which will decrease sales, decrease appeal, etc...

Now Napalm, you are a strong, young guy, so what works for you is not the "norm" for an an XC rider, in the same way that Turtle is not an example of the average muni rider. So even if you like something as it is, there are many riders who are dissatisfied with the very same product.

Schlumpf owners are a unique population, both for their willingness to put up with a fickle product and their ability to pay a steep price to access that product. There are far more unicyclists who don't own a Schlumpf than do, and there is a fair number of folks who have given up on their Schlumpf for various reasons.

Realistically, the sales for Schlumpf hubs has been fairly flat, for many reasons (cost, access, durability, small market), so if this aspect of unicycling is to grow, then it needs to change:

More gear ratio choices, disc brake, fewer user end issues, and a improved access. For now and the immediate future, owning a Schlumpf is akin to owning a Maserati; the nearest Maserati dealer to me is in Atlanta, four hours away and gawd forbid I need parts or I break down while driving around town.

Say what you will, but you know I'm right, so let's not beleaguer the issues with Schlumpf, just as you should refrain from telling me that my lack of experience are the reason I don't like riding a Schlumpf

The next generation of Schlumpf buyers will be like me and mine vs you and yours, ie newer riders with evolving skills.

I just wanna be a bug on the wall when you crawl out of bed at age fifty and complain about your back pain to your wife

[siafirede]

Originally Posted by napalm

KH is releasing outboard disc brakes next year so there is no need to make it wider.

Awesome, I didn't know about that!

[redwelly]

Originally Posted by Nurse Ben

Say what you will, but you know I'm right,

Not the most compelling way to make a point (I'm not even disputing what you are claiming above).

[MuniSano]

I'd also like to see most unicycle gear stay mostly the same, or at least if changes MUST be made they should be as an alternative not the new "rule". Options are good but forcing a whole new paradigm w/o good reasons isn't. Disk brakes? Sound great, but I'm fairly happy with my "old fashioned" hydro rim brake, why change things up? I used to have disk brake on my fixed-gear mountain bike; was such a pain to constantly adjust that I just removed it. Keep it simple! If folks want disk brakes so badly then great, add some more hub width/frame options but don't assume *everybody* wants the new features....

As for my KH/Schlumpf hub, I've been nothing but 100% satisfied with mine; been getting steady use out of it for the past 2 years w/o any issues; totally great for the kind of riding I do; can't imagine NOT having it.

General comments about skill development and gear changes: I've always been of the mindset of not spending a whole lot of money on every new thing that comes along (yeah, I have a Schlumpf but that's a long story). I take great pride in getting the most out of what gear I have and expanding what I can do with it; pushing my skill level with what I have. While I'd love to be able to throw money down and try all sorts of unicycle designs, sizes, tires, rims, brakes etc... the reality is I can't afford to and so I do what I can with what I have! While my KH24 GUni may not be the best unicycle for all occasions, it's taken me on many epic adventures over the past 4 years of use: from descending 14ers in Colorado, to 12 hour single track mountain bike races, to 100 mile road rides and a whole lot of riding in between; all over the country! My moral is simply to tinker less and ride what you have more! Ride it until it breaks!

[napalm]

Ben- I can understand your concern about the reliability of an expensive product, but that comes part and parcel with being part of a very small sport where the products are complex and the conditions they are used in- testing.

However, You can't say you are at a level of riding where you need a schlumpf, then backtrack and say you want different gear ratio's for it. The step in gearing and learning to tame, even exploit it, is part of the skill.

Using your car example- you wouldn't go out and chuck a 4 speed auto in a ferrari to make it more accessible to regular drivers. You need to keep the high end gear for high end riding.

You will continue to develop as a rider, and one day come to realise the benefit of the design- and then you will be like me, trying to stop other people wanting to dumb down the high end equipment because they haven't quite got the hang of it yet.

mark

[scotthue]

Mark, while I agree with some of what you are saying, your car analogy does not transfer to Schlumpf's. Bikes and cars have MORE gears because a smaller step between gears (or a more powerful engine that can handle the bigger gear steps) is more efficient because you are more likely to be at the best gear ratio for your body (the engine) and the current terrain.

[GizmoDuck]

Originally Posted by napalm

However, You can't say you are at a level of riding where you need a schlumpf, then backtrack and say you want different gear ratio's for it. The step in gearing and learning to tame, even exploit it, is part of the skill.

Using your car example- you wouldn't go out and chuck a 4 speed auto in a ferrari to make it more accessible to regular drivers. You need to keep the high end gear for high end riding.

mark

I prefer to ride an Unguni, because part of the attraction of unicycling for me is the simplicity of it.

However, once you have added the complication of a gear, I don't see what the difference is between having two gears vs ten or twenty gears. Closer gear ratios and more gears are going to make it more efficient- that's why bikes have multiple gears. To say that having a big jump and only two gear ratios is part of the 'skill' of unicycling seems counter-intuitive.

That said, the thing with unicycling is that the gearing needs to be as close to 100% reliable as possible, because of catastrophic events that can happen with gear failure (ie injury).

More gears is not about dumbing down unicycling, it is about making it more efficient, but the limiting factor is that efficiency must not come at the cost of safety and reliability.

[GizmoDuck]

Originally Posted by Nurse Ben

Realistically, the sales for Schlumpf hubs has been fairly flat, for many reasons (cost, access, durability, small market), so if this aspect of unicycling is to grow, then it needs to change:

My experience is quite the opposite. I don' think the market is flat at all. Every event I go to, there are more and more schlumpfs. I had one of the first schlumpfs when they became available in 2005, and it was quite a novelty (as well as lethal). Florian subsequently changed the design to stop the gear slippage.

The newer hubs now are more reliable and more durable than ever. It can only grow from here as it achieves critical mass- people see them and have a go from people that already have them, then subsequently get their own. It used to be that everyone knew who had one, that is no longer the case.

Originally Posted by Nurse Ben

More gear ratio choices, disc brake, fewer user end issues, and a improved access. For now and the immediate future, owning a Schlumpf is akin to owning a Maserati; the nearest Maserati dealer to me is in Atlanta, four hours away and gawd forbid I need parts or I break down while driving around town.

Agreed on the first point, but with the limiting factor of needing 100% reliability because of the safety issues with hub failure. There are greater challenges when you introduce more gear ratios.

On the point of Maseratis- A Schlumpf hub is still a fairly cheap item when you compare it with a sport like bicycling. Not many sports where you can get the top of the line equipment for less than $5k all up.

[scott ttocs]

Originally Posted by GizmoDuck

I had one of the first schlumpfs when they became available in 2005, and it was quite a novelty (as well as lethal). Florian subsequently changed the design to stop the gear slippage.

Was gear slippage a problem with the early Schlumpf hubs? When did he fix it? Under what circumstances did the gears slip?

Scott

[MuniAddict]

Originally Posted by napalm

I honestly don't think torque wrenches are necessary- if you know what you are doing you can get away without them.

I go totally by feel, and have not had any problems. I also check cranks, bearing caps and shift buttons before each ride so there won't be any surprises during a ride, or at least minimize the possibility of problems arising. Waiting too long between these "flight checks" can lead to more severe issues as parts continue to get loose, exacerbating or compounding damage.

The last thing you want to happen is to have a shift button fly off, losing it or the set screw. This happened to John Long a few years ago, as we had only just started our ride. (I didn't have a GUni yet). As I remember it, (I may have the details wrong, but it's close) one of his shift buttons flew off, and down an embankment during shifting, and we were unable to find it!

[GizmoDuck]

Originally Posted by scott ttocs

Was gear slippage a problem with the early Schlumpf hubs?

Scott

Yes, it was a lethal problem with the 1st Gen Hub. From his explanation as I recall- the locking mechanism used to be flat, which caused them to work loose under pressure. The newer design was at an angle, which forces them to lock together under load. He also doubled the number of locking bits from 6 to 12.

Originally Posted by scott ttocs

When did he fix it?

Just before I broke my leg in 2006, but I hadn't had a chance to swap the hub over yet. Florian was very worried, and subsequently proven right when I snapped my leg in half.

Originally Posted by scott ttocs

Under what circumstances did the gears slip?

Under load, particularly on backpressure. I was riding down a hill when it suddenly slipped, causing it to go into freewheel. I planted my leg on the ground at 25-30km/hr.

[Nurse Ben]

Gizmoduck, I also prefer ungeared, it's lighter, simpler, and works better for crossover use.

Napalm, I think you misunderstand me, I'm a good rider, not a beginner, and I can ride and shift the guni just fine. What I'm saying is that this product is inherently flawed in that the designed use is overly challenging to many good riders, as a result it is less accessible and has the affect of putting riders off from the geared hub "movement".

I have found a few places where I can use high gear, such as forest service roads, but that kind of riding is boring and the only reason I would ride them is to get from single track to single track or to complete a single track loop that has some easy double track. In reality, if I wanted to ride easy double track and forest service roads, I would have kept my 36er.

So yeah, a smaller gain on the order of 25-35% is more usable for the average rider. Do I want this, absolutely. Will anyone listen, probably not. But, since riding fixed works better for me and most other riders, well, you can figure out the rest.

Honestly, it's ski season, I just finished building some prototype telemark bindings, so I'm pretty much over the guni thing until Spring. But, I am steadfast in my willingness to pay more for a guni if I could have my preferred gearing

I am glad that the Schlumpf exists, if not for me, then for those who enjoy it. My view is not that unique, so maybe in time it'll be shared by enough riders that it'll become a reality. As to opinions stated on this forum having sway in the real world, let's be honest with ourselves, most unicyclists do not participate in this forum; Mr Schlumpf is probably in the latter group.

[scott ttocs]

Dear GizmoDuck,

Thank you for the information. I was not aware of the problem as it predates my unicycle riding. I hope you healed up well.

What were the hub numbers affected?

Scott

[napalm]

Perhaps I see the purpose of the schlumpf hub as something completely different to you Ben. The schlumpf hub means I can race in enduro MTB events at a competitive pace. These races include a variety of dirt fire roads, dual track, and single track. Sections of these races are technical enough to require me to have a full on Muni, while others sections require me to cover distance fast.

From the sounds of things, the riding you do consists of shorter rides on single track where there are not many opportunities for you to use your 2nd gear. That is completely understandable. Instead of looking for a speed solution with gears you should maybe look for it in different wheel sizes/crank lengths on a SS wheel.

As long as there is only 1 commercially available geared hub on the market I think it is important to keep it as versatile as it currently is. If you shortened the gearing ratios across all the hubs there would be a lot of disappointed distance and Muni riders out there.

I am sure once the demand for a shorter geared hub is there then they will start to be made. As it stands, I think that the current ratios suit most riders and will remain as they are.

[Yeti]

Originally Posted by GizmoDuck

Yes, it was a lethal problem with the 1st Gen Hub. [...]
Just before I broke my leg in 2006,

You are referring to the old cotterless hub, not the first generation of the ISIS version, right?