MP3 players (was Music)

[john_childs]

This started in the Music thread in RSU. It's too off-topic over there so I'm moving it over here. I hope the domesticated ape will see the reply over here.

Originally posted by domesticated ape
On the subject of mp3 players, do any other brands players (i.e. ipod alternatives) play gapless?

Pretty much the only choice for an MP3 player that plays gapless is the Rio Karma. There may be some new ones that can do gapless playback, but I don't follow the market to know what the new players can do. The best way to find out is to Google the name and model of an MP3 player along with the word "gapless" and you can find reviews that will you whether or not the player supports gapless playback for MP3s or OGG or other format.

For info about the state of gapless playback you can read this web page: MP3 players: Buyer Beware. If you want to hear what gapless MP3s can sound like you can try the Foobar player for Windows. It proves that gapless MP3 playback is possible. There are some plugins for Winamp that claim to be able to do gapless but they don't always do a good job.

Portable MP3 players still need some more time to mature. Gapless playback is the number one most important feature for me. It is a sad state for the industry that only the Rio Karama supports that feature right now.

My current solution is to use a CD based MP3 player. When I want gapless playback I plop in a real CD and the album plays back with no gaps. When I want capacity I plop in a CD-ROM with MP3 files. It's not a perfect solution but it works well enough for me right now.

I'm still waiting for the perfect high capacity MP3 player that has gapless playback. When I find that perfect (or nearly perfect) MP3 player I'll buy it. But I'm not going to spend several hundred dollars on one until they get better and I can find one that I like that has real gapless playback.

The Rockbox project is working on developing alternative firmware for some select MP3 players to give some additional functionality along with gapless playback. Some info about their work on gapless playback is here.

[GILD]

Originally posted by john_childs on the issue of gapless playback by MP3 players
It is a sad state for the industry that only the Rio Karama supports that feature right now.

i still consider the 'day the music died' as the day i first saw a young teen girl with an electronic gimmick on a necklace that was filled with just the hooks of a bunch of pop songs

sometimes...

[domesticated ape]

Originally posted by john_childs
Portable MP3 players still need some more time to mature.

Cheers for the info, it seems from that link that they definitely need some improvements.
IMO they are also way too expensive at the moment, think I'll stick with my outdated CD player for now

GILD, i wouldnt worry too much about the music preferences of young teenage girls, these are the
people who buying inane identikit pop singles by the thousand for the last few decades!

[GILD]

Originally posted by domesticated ape
GILD, i wouldnt worry too much about the music preferences of young teenage girls, these are the
people who buying inane identikit pop singles by the thousand for the last few decades!

i hear u
reminds me of that wonderfull line in the CD insert of Yahoo's Greatest Hits
"...there was a time when pop music didn't mean identikit boy-/girl bands singing close harmony over interchangable backing tracks...'

take that, well...take that among others

unfortunately, i think the reality is that the musical taste of 'young teenage girls' is something to be worried about
if the mass cd-buying public (our aforementioned young teenage girls) were into listening to music the way john childs does, do u think only one MP3 player would feature gapless playback?
the market and the market's tastes isn't making that a priority feature at the moment

[mscalisi]

I read the article, and I thought it was very interesting. I didn't have a clue that this was even an issue.

However for me, that popular MP3 players don't support gapless playback is dwarfed by the fact that they use lossly compression.

I listen to MP3's as much as anyone, but I don't consider them to be in a format worthy of critical listening. Even the lowly CD that MP3's are derived from leaves something to be desired.

I wish that SACD or DVDA was having the kind of success that MP3 and other lossy compressed formats are currently experienced.

...my turntable fully supports gapless playback. (but not most modern music releases).

[GILD]

Originally posted by GILD
i hear u
reminds me of that wonderfull line in the CD insert of Yahoo's Greatest Hits

that was meant to be 'Yazoo'...

freudian slip?

[john_childs]

Originally posted by mscalisi
I read the article, and I thought it was very interesting. I didn't have a clue that this was even an issue.

However for me, that popular MP3 players don't support gapless playback is dwarfed by the fact that they use lossly compression.

I listen to MP3's as much as anyone, but I don't consider them to be in a format worthy of critical listening. Even the lowly CD that MP3's are derived from leaves something to be desired.

I wish that SACD or DVDA was having the kind of success that MP3 and other lossy compressed formats are currently experienced.

...my turntable fully supports gapless playback. (but not most modern music releases).

There are players that support lossless compression formats. Some support FLAC and some support lossless WMA. I think the iPods support some sort of lossless compression. The lossless compression formats will get you about 50% compression so you'll end up with some big files. Even with the lossless formats you've still got to deal with players not supporting gapless playback. And you'll get less battery life because the larger files mean the hard drive has to spin more.

I rip my music using the alt preset standard setting with LAME. That gives about 190 kbps VBR files. They sound plenty good enough for me. I'm not even sure I'd be able to accurately tell them apart from the original CD. The alt preset standard setting on LAME is where the critical ears at Hydrogenaudio say there is not much point in going further although some do choose to go for higher bitrates.

I'm a critical listener but my hearing is also not all that great. I also don't have a high quality sound system in my computer so trying to do listening tests through the computer is pointless. One of these days I'll get a headphone amp for the computer that bypasses the soundcard and I'll be able to listen to some better sound.

[GILD]

Originally posted by mscalisi
...my turntable fully supports gapless playback

eeerrrmm, no it doesn't

[mscalisi]

Originally posted by GILD
eeerrrmm, no it doesn't

Ha ha! ...I hadn't thought of that.

[GILD]

Originally posted by mscalisi
Ha ha! ...I hadn't thought of that.

oops, then again ...

[brockfisher05]

I have a rio Cali its the halo edition

[mscalisi]

Originally posted by john_childs
There are players that support lossless compression formats. Some support FLAC and some support lossless WMA. I think the iPods support some sort of lossless compression. The lossless compression formats will get you about 50% compression so you'll end up with some big files. Even with the lossless formats you've still got to deal with players not supporting gapless playback. And you'll get less battery life because the larger files mean the hard drive has to spin more.

I rip my music using the alt preset standard setting with LAME. That gives about 190 kbps VBR files. They sound plenty good enough for me. I'm not even sure I'd be able to accurately tell them apart from the original CD. The alt preset standard setting on LAME is where the critical ears at Hydrogenaudio say there is not much point in going further although some do choose to go for higher bitrates.

I'm a critical listener but my hearing is also not all that great. I also don't have a high quality sound system in my computer so trying to do listening tests through the computer is pointless. One of these days I'll get a headphone amp for the computer that bypasses the soundcard and I'll be able to listen to some better sound.

Thanks for the information. I didn't know about WMA lossless. My hearing is not that great either, and it doesn't make much difference through computer speakers (although low bitrate compression is still blatently obvious and unlistenable).

I just find it disappointing that hi-res digital audio is somehow lost in the shadows.

[john_childs]

Looks like Apple may have done it. They just might have proper gapless playback on the new iPods and some of the old iPods. iTunes 7 also supports gapless playback for computer playback. Very interesting.

There are some threads at Hydrogen Audio discussing the new gapless feature in iTunes 7 and the new iPods.

GAPLESS Playback now in iPods - New!, Apple just announced today! GAPLESS playback...!

Itunes 7 released

Reports and reviews are kind of hit and miss right now. Some claiming the gapless playback in iTunes works and some claiming it doesn't work. Some claiming a particular generation and model and firmware revision iPod supports gapless playback and others saying the same iPod model does not.

One problem may be that not everyone has the same definition of gapless. Some people consider crossfading to be gapless while others know that it isn't. We'll have to wait for some reliable reviews by people who actually know what is going on and are very critical in their analysis.

If this all turns out to be true I just may get an iPod.

[john_childs]

All is not calm on the iTunes 7 front: iTunes 7 turning out to have major glitches

I haven't tried (or installed) iTunes 7 yet. May hold off till it gets an update.

[GILD]

Thanx for the update.
I've been thinking about going digital for a little while now and I'm also a Floyd fan, so gapless is crucial.