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Old 2007-02-07, 07:54 AM   #1
412
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24" and 29" - different enough?

I currently have (and love) a KH24 with gazz 3.0 tire and 150 cranks attached at present (also own 165 cranks - but probably won't use them anymore).

When comparing the 24"*3 Gazz to normal 26" XC tyres the 24" is actually bigger... (or at least roughly the same size, depending on which tire you compare to).

Now to my question... how much larger will the circumference be on the stock KH29" be compared to my present setup? (I havn't been able to find any reliable ETRTO numbers on the tyres and event if i did find any I now how far for reality these numbers can be...)

The reason I'm wondering is that I'm thinking of perhaps getting a KH29 (in case you hadn't already guessed)...

Also would 125 or 137 mm cranks make a big difference - speed wise - on the 29'er?

Would it make sense to have a KH24 "muni" and a KH29 for "commuting and light duty" unicycling. There's (for me) no point in having two unicycles if there is only say a 15% difference between them...

Ps. Is it true that the Gazz 24*3.0 is discontinued? (Should one start hoarding them...?)
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Old 2007-02-07, 08:01 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 412

Would it make sense to have a KH24 "muni" and a KH29 for "commuting and light duty" unicycling. There's (for me) no point in having two unicycles if there is only say a 15% difference between them...
Yes, it makes total sense to have a MUni and a 29er separately. You'd want to set up the 29er with short cranks, probably 125mm, to make the difference noticeable, but yes, the difference will definitely be noticeable.
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Old 2007-02-07, 09:07 AM   #3
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yes, definitely noticable, but get a big slick and short cranks on the 29er.

no idea on the gazz, first i've heard.
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Old 2007-02-07, 09:44 AM   #4
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that gazz rumour has been going ever since i got in to unicycling, nothing's ever come of it
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Old 2007-02-07, 09:44 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 412
When comparing the 24"*3 Gazz to normal 26" XC tyres the 24" is actually bigger... (or at least roughly the same size, depending on which tire you compare to).
How did you come to that conclusion? My mountain bike wheel/tyre has significantly larger diameter than my 24x2.6 muni, even without bigger than average tyres on the bike. I hear this quoted a lot, and I wonder how people work it out. The difference isn't massive, but a 24 is not bigger than a 26.

Either way, yes you will notice a difference, especially with shortish cranks. I've been on the occasional muni ride with people on 29ers and trying to keep up nearly made my legs fall off, while they were pootling along happily.

It's also worth considering that there's more to it than outright diameter. The 29er isn't just bigger, but with a lighter tyre than a 3" downhill muni tyre it'll probably be quicker anyway, especially in terms of acceleration.

John
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Old 2007-02-07, 09:55 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 412
Ps. Is it true that the Gazz 24*3.0 is discontinued? (Should one start hoarding them...?)
Looks like it. But I don't know for sure. The current Nokian Tyres web site does not list the 24x3 Gazzaloddi and hasn't for a while. At one time UDC bought up all the remaining stock of the 24x3 Gazz tyres. I'm not sure if they're still selling off from that stock or if more have been made since.

I don't think it's necessary to panic, although I did when the first announcement that Nokian was discontinuing the 24x3 Gazz and bought up a couple (this was a couple years ago). The Duro tyre that comes stock on the KH is plenty good and is more maneuverable than the Gazz. Though it has slightly less volume. It's less expensive. I may even switch to it even though I have a few Gazz tyres left.
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Old 2007-02-07, 10:05 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnhimsworth
How did you come to that conclusion? My mountain bike wheel/tyre has significantly larger diameter than my 24x2.6 muni, even without bigger than average tyres on the bike. I hear this quoted a lot, and I wonder how people work it out. The difference isn't massive, but a 24 is not bigger than a 26.
A quick measure of my 24x3 Gazz muni tyre gives a diameter of about 26"

A quick measure of my 26x2.1 Panaracer XC Pro MTB tyre gives a diameter of about 26.5"

Those are quick measurements that I did about 1 minute ago and don't take into account sitting on the unicycle or bike. They also don't account for actual rolling distance with rider weight.

But with a 24x3 Gazz the unweighted diameter is just a bit less than the diameter of a typical 26" XC MTB wheel. A 24x2.6 isn't as bit as the Gazz 24x3.
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Old 2007-02-07, 10:11 AM   #8
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First, nice to hear that the Gazz ain't going anywhere, it's so lovely - much nicer than the Duro/Halo IMHO.

Regarding the "24x3.0" being bigger than 26, I put them next to each other and to my eye the Gazz appeared higher than the Hutchinson Spider 26x2.0. (I havn't really measured accurately, but the 24x3.0 looks to be the same "height" as the Gazz 26x2.3.) As you say, the difference is hardly massive, but it would depend greatly on the tire. (EDIT: Theres is a "huge" difference in height when comparing a Gazz 3.0 with a 24x2.6 tire such as the the one that came stock on the KH XC version last year.)

My thinking was that since 24"x.3"~26"x2.X" and 26"x2.X"~700c(aka 29er when talkning mtb)x23mm" (my roadracing bike), there is a potential that the radius/height/circumference (choose any) difference from my KH24 compared to a KH29 would be to small to motivate having both.

Regarding getting a slick instead, would it make a big difference? (I have a faint memory of my Hookworm compared to a Kenda 2.6 knobbly, but it's indeed faint... also I would like to retain som terrain capabilities if possible + the big apple (?) slick looks hideous. :-P)

There seems to be consensus on the issue of retrofitting 125mm cranks...

Has anyone got a number on the rough % difference in speed, given the leg speed? (Or is it perhaps one of those things that are better to try for one self.)

Last edited by 412; 2007-02-07 at 10:18 AM.
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Old 2007-02-07, 10:32 AM   #9
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Kh29 Vs Kh24

I have a KH29 with the 2.1" Kenda Klaw tire and 150mmcranks and an Onza 24with the Duro 3" tire and 165mmcranks. I now have a KH24 on order with the Duro 3" tire. I am replacing my Onza only because I don't like the frame design. the KH frame curves in at the crown saving you many burises on the insides of the knees or catching of the shin guards on the crown. However this is not your question.

On the KH29 I average 16 to 18MPH and on the Onza I average 12 to 14MPH. I go riding a lot on trails with a friend who has the odometer/speedometer on his bike. That is a 40 to 50% increase in speed! The 24 is much better for hard muni. The 29 is much better for road riding and cross country on dirt roads or light muni. The 150mm cranks do make the 29 much harder to balance and manuever. If I were riding only on the road I would probably get the 125mm cranks. However once you go off road and need to do sharp turns and have any kind of manueverability and to deal with surprises such as sand patches and mud puddles or rocks and gravel keep the 150mm cranks.

I actually want to try to put the 165mm cranks on the 29 to see what kind of an effect they would have on speed and balance.

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Old 2007-02-07, 01:30 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Unicorn
On the KH29 I average 16 to 18MPH
Bloody hell... are you sure? I consider myself fairly quick and I usually average no more than 10mph cross-country. Even my top speed isn't as high as that (I don't think I've been faster than 15mph even in a sprint).

On a smooth trail I reckon I could probably keep up 12mph over a couple of miles, but 16-18 is incredible! Are you using very short cranks and only riding smooth trails? Still impressive even then.

Rob

EDIT: Just noticed you said 150mm cranks.
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Old 2007-02-07, 01:54 PM   #11
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Old 2007-02-07, 03:52 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 412
My thinking was that since 24"x.3"~26"x2.X" and 26"x2.X"~700c(aka 29er when talkning mtb)x23mm" (my roadracing bike), there is a potential that the radius/height/circumference (choose any) difference from my KH24 compared to a KH29 would be to small to motivate having both.

Regarding getting a slick instead, would it make a big difference? (I have a faint memory of my Hookworm compared to a Kenda 2.6 knobbly, but it's indeed faint... also I would like to retain som terrain capabilities if possible + the big apple (?) slick looks hideous. :-P)
Personally, I love the Big Apple, including for off-road. The only thing it doesn't do well is deal with loose surfaces. And the difference between a 29er with a Big Apple and a 24x3" with a Gazz is enormous--even the difference between a 29er and a 26x3". Diameter is only one of the many aspects of tire behavior, and the 29er behaves light years better on roads than any of the 3" tires.
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Old 2007-02-07, 04:03 PM   #13
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I've been riding a Nimbus 24" Muni for the last month, but mostly on the street. I just ordered the KH 29" to replace the Muni for street and light trails riding, but will keep riding the 24 for off-road muni until I break it. Then it's time for the KH 24!
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Old 2007-02-07, 04:20 PM   #14
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I'm in the process of discovering just how far I can push things, Muni wise, on a KH 29er. I need to do a few more 29er rides, and get the gear dialed in (currently using a Nokian heavy duty 26 X 3 DH tube, Kenda Nevegal 29 X 2.2 tire and 175 dirt jumper cranks) before I know enough to post anything really worthwhile.

For the time being--On freeride and intermediate tech trails the 29er is vastly superior and WAY faster than a 24. But once it gets steep and rocky--hold the hell on because at low PSI that tire folds over like crazy (no true DH 29er tires exist, only single ply sidewall tires--in June the first DH tires arrive) and the big 29 wheel can run away from you in a flash! Right now the beggest liability in doing 29er tech Muni is the lack of a DH tire. With what we got, keeping a high pressue keeps the tire on the rim (this last weekend I folded the tire right off the rim on a steep rocky bit) but makes drops and rocky rolling very difficult.

But I'm still experimenting . . .

In a word, 29er for freeride and up to advanced intermediate Muni. Beyond that and you're in for a very wild ride.

JL
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Old 2007-02-07, 05:25 PM   #15
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Would a brake help with the steep descents on a KH29? Especially running shorter cranks, it seems the brake could help stabilize the ride.

Guess I should start looking for that, too. Any good vendors and sources for the complete brake setup? (I'll also do a SeaRcH later)
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