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Old 2005-12-02, 05:24 PM   #16
DarkTom
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My local bike shop built my Large Marge Muni no bother, but he wouldn't (couldn't?) do my Coker (qu-ax) wheel when I replaced the hub.

I was replacing the standard qu-ax hub with a unicycle.com wide cro-mo hub and had been told that the stock spokes (that came with it) would do fine. Roger from UDC-UK told me this, also that UDC-US sells them like this, they just swap the hubs.

But Mr. Bike Shop didn't think they would be long enough and refused to do it on the grounds of safety - he didn't want to build a wheel that in his mind was gonna fall apart and possibly hurt me.

UDC-UK built it up, I trued it, it's sorted. I even took it round to the bike shop to show him, but he stuck to his original reasons.

Quote:
>> It took my bike mechanic 4hrs to build it up.
>> Normally takes him 40min to build a wheel.

What causes the difference?

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I think it's the size that throws them, most bike mechanics/wheelbuilders have never even seen a wheel that big.

So, siafirede, if you're gonna get your bike shop to build it, check before you order all the parts in case he turns out like my bike shop.

T.
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Old 2005-12-02, 07:44 PM   #17
oxfordrider
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Schlumpf 36"

Is the new Schlumpf hub wider? I remember before the Schlumpf's came out the consensus was they were not wide enough for a 36" wheel.
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Old 2005-12-03, 04:34 AM   #18
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Schlumpf hub flange width is 51-52mm.
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Old 2005-12-03, 09:36 AM   #19
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Reluctantly, because I'm losing business to do so, LiveWire is taking the position that the Schlumpf hub is too narrow for a 36" wheel. It would result in a wheel with improper geometry. Although the Airfoil rim would provide a lot of stiffness, the resulting wheel would not be properly built, and excessively flexy and weak. It's even marginal for a 29er wheel. A wheel built with this geometry, with whatever skill, will tend to rub on brake pads and frames in general use.

By comparison, a Suzue (61mm), Profile (62mm), KH 2005 (67mm), or even Harper hub (60.3mm) are 60mm+. A rear track hub for a bicycle is on the order of 63mm (Suzue Promax) - 80mm (Phil Wood).

It's my opinion that 100mm flange-to-flange, like the widened Suzue (101mm) first pioneered by Chris Reeder and subsequently produced by GB4, then by Tom Miller, or the UDC Coker hub (100 mm), is the appropriate width for a 36" wheel for general use. I imagine that I would also share Pete Perron's position that 80mm is acceptable as well for general use (hard hill climbs, use of brakes, etc), though I really do think that 100mm is more suitable. In Pete's 2nd generation case, his brake is a centrally-located disk brake, which eliminates the issue of brake rub, and leaves only the issues of frame rub (much less restrictive) and overall strength (plenty for road use of a geared unicycle).

If I remember correctly, the stock Coker hub was on the order of 50mm, and the excellent QU-AX hub is at 55mm, both unacceptable.

This opinion is not the result of lack of experience with larger wheels, but based on such, and based on the year-long project that resulted in the prototype Strongest Wheel, still going, er, strong. In that project, I found that, even when using a wider hub and Airfoil rim, the rim would rub on the brake pads. Not till I raised the tension to the highest appropriate for the rim and geometry did that problem go away.

To have a good wheel, it's not enough to have a properly trued, uniformly tensioned and highly tensioned wheel based on good components. It's important to have good geometry as well.

As a result, I'm restricting my own builds with the current Schlumpf hub to 29ers and below, and feel that the hub is most suited for 26" and below, given the present flange width. I know that there exist 36's with this exciting new hub, and that people are enjoying them. I just have to draw the line somewhere.

Similarly, if someone, looking to use the wheel off-road, ordered a 36" wheel with a Profile hub, which I support wholeheartedly, I would build it with caveats, but would try to steer him or her towards a KH, which is wider. A wider Profile or KH would be ideal, but in the quantities required to get a special order, impossible for LiveWire at the present, not to mention technical restrictions on axle length and the like. I would not want to use a Suzue (little justification when the wider hubs are available) or a Qu-ax (too narrow).

There might be special circumstances that dictate exceptions, such as for track use only where wheel strength is less important and brakes are not a consideration.

I know that this position is not universally shared, and I apologize for any inconvenience that my holding it causes. I look forward to the next evolution of the promising Schumpf product to see how it develops.

In the meantime, there are lots of cool projects in the works and to come. Working with Scott Wallis is a real pleasure and there's lots of fine riding to do, with great people, here in Texas.

Thanks, Greg, for your words, so pleasing to the eye to read.
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Old 2005-12-04, 08:54 PM   #20
hans
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Hi,

I am Hans Fiby. I do not post to this forum often, as I am not a native speeker, but I read regularly.
I have built a 36" Unicylce more than a year ago. It was nice to ride, but had some flaws. I ordered a 29" Schlumpf this spring and still have not got it. I was in Switzerland this summer and met Florian Schlumpf and tried it out. I could shift almost instantly and loved to ride it. I will be in Laos next Janury and I did not have a unicycle, that was solid enough for this adventure. So I got a little nervous.
In november I asked Florian to send me a geared hub and a frame for a 36" unicycle and I got it a week later. The wheel was built by my local bike shop, my friend Andreas here is a good wheel builder.

For everyone interessted: The wheel consists of a geared Schlumpf hub and an Airfoil rim. The spokes are standard Coker spokes from UCD. The wheel is built with a 4 cross pattern. It feels very solid. I have a V-Break. The break works fine, there is no rubbing.

The selfmade hub on my old 36" uni was 10 cm wide (flange to flange). So I do believe in wide hubs, but I do not see or feel any problem with the Schlumpf. I only ride on tarmac.

How does feel?
I am not a very good unicyclist, so your milage will vary; but it is not easy to ride in fast mode. There is a very small slack in 1:1 mode and a bigger slack in 1:1.5 mode. After a few minutes, the 1:1 mode ist like a normal coker - relaxing!
I can mount almost 100% in 1:1 mode; I can mount almost 0% in 1:1.5 mode.
I trained 4 or 5 hours now, I can shift up and down. Shifting down is easier for me. I UPD in about 15% of my shifting operartions. The percentage gets better and better.
Riding in 1:1.5 mode needs a lot of concentration. I cannot look on the cycle computer by now! The feeling is very similar to my first rides on the coker 1 1/2 years ago. I do not UPD in 1:1.5 mode (too often), but it is hard to stay on.
I have 140 mm cranks. I think, I will get used to the uni and riding in 1:1.5 mode will get easier over the weeks. I keep you updated.

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Old 2005-12-04, 09:07 PM   #21
unisk8r
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Try 170 or even 175mm cranks. Using 140's in 1.5 mode (56" effective wheel diameter) is equal to 90mm cranks on a direct drive coker.
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Old 2005-12-04, 09:45 PM   #22
hans
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cranksize discussion!

Florian sent me 170mm original schlumpf cranks. I still have cranks in different sizes from my old selfmade 36" uni. Pictures of the old one are here http://www.wuk.at/hochrad/berichte/einrad_hans.php (German sorry!)

I rode my old one with 125 and I loved it. I thought, that putting on the 170 mm cranks would be a waste of potential. I can always do that and I wanted to get the 170mm cranks from Florian, because I thought, that I would have problems with the shorter ones.
Maybe I exaggerated the difficulty in 1:1.5 mode. On Saturday I rode 15 km. I mounted shifted up and rode 7 km then I shifted down, made a U-turn, shifted up and rode back, shifted down and dismounted. No UPD all the way, all flat, a litte wind. Today I rode 28 km, I mounted, shifted up and rode 14 km. On the way back I shifted up and down a few times and had 1 UPD shifting up and 1 UPD shifting down. So I need to concentrate, when in 1:1.5 mode, but it is not impossible. I hope I will get used to it soon. I am happy to have the option to put on 170 mm cranks, and things will surely be much easier then, but I want to stay with the 140 mm for a while now.

I have not tried to change cranks on the Schlumpf and I am a bit anxious about it because I for sure do not want to ruin the hub. But maybe the 170ers will be my option in the end.
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Old 2005-12-05, 01:05 AM   #23
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hans, that's one hell of a unicycle you got yourself there
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Old 2005-12-05, 06:15 AM   #24
siafirede
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Hans,

Thanks for posting the pictures of your setup. Does the wheel feel strong when you ride it or does it flex? Does anyone else have an opinion on Hans' 4 cross pattern setup? I still have a lot to look into but if I were to go ahead with the schlumpf 36 it looks like my best option now is to order the tom miller spokes and follow Hans' pattern and have a good wheelbuilder in my area assemble the wheel.

Dave,
Thanks for your emails and the post. I understand your position and think its great that you only wish to produce the best quality unicycles. If I have any other projects in mind I will be sure to contact you.
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Old 2005-12-05, 09:19 PM   #25
hans
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It feels strong enough, I do not feel it flex. I have a break and it does not rub. I did some short and steep uphill and there was no break rubbing.
Just remember the hub is wider than a standard Coker hub and the flanges are bigger so the wheel is a little stronger than a standard Coker wheel. I have an Airfoil rim, that adds to the wheel strength.

I am sure, the uni is strong enough for road riding. I do not plan to muni, jump or UPD with it ;-)
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Old 2005-12-05, 09:23 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hans
I do not plan to muni, jump or UPD with it
Hans-

Planning a UPD is contradictory.
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Old 2005-12-05, 09:52 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by harper
Planning a UPD is contradictory.
I always plan on mine...the only thing I leave open is the exact time of occurence.
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Old 2005-12-06, 12:15 AM   #28
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Am I the only person that doesn't like super wide hubs or cranks with q-factor on a coker?

Yes they may increase the strength of the wheel so that fat people or people who want to do trials on their coker or stand on their wheel sideways can own a coker.

But they make it feel like riding a horse. It's okay if you've got wide legs and ride horses a lot, but if your knees feel the right distance apart with a narrow hub, a wider hub just doesn't feel nice. It feels all wiggly and inefficient too.

I noticed riding behind John H on the 10 hour 100 mile ride, he has cranks with a q factor and rides noticeably more wiggly than me.

I seem to remember Ken Looi said something similar about the wide hub a bit back, but I might be going mad.

Whilst theoretical strength is nice, if it's at the expense of riding performance, then surely you have to ask whether it's worth it for a road wheel, when even the stock coker doesn't break when used for road riding.

Joe
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Old 2005-12-06, 12:48 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joemarshall
Am I the only person that doesn't like super wide hubs or cranks with q-factor on a coker?

Yes they may increase the strength of the wheel so that fat people or people who want to do trials on their coker or stand on their wheel sideways can own a coker.

But they make it feel like riding a horse. It's okay if you've got wide legs and ride horses a lot, but if your knees feel the right distance apart with a narrow hub, a wider hub just doesn't feel nice. It feels all wiggly and inefficient too.

I noticed riding behind John H on the 10 hour 100 mile ride, he has cranks with a q factor and rides noticeably more wiggly than me.

I seem to remember Ken Looi said something similar about the wide hub a bit back, but I might be going mad.

Whilst theoretical strength is nice, if it's at the expense of riding performance, then surely you have to ask whether it's worth it for a road wheel, when even the stock coker doesn't break when used for road riding.

Joe
I like narrow hubs too- but I don't weigh much and I dont' use brakes. I did have a quick ride on Beau Hoovers wide hub, and didn't notice too much difference, although it was at relatively low speeds. I think long cranks affect wheel wobble more than Q-factor. Short cranks feel so smooth on the downhill. Some people tend to wobble more than others too- something I noticed alot on the AUT. People like Scot Cooper have virtually no wobble, Bronson, Nathan Hoover and I have a tiny amount, Andy C and Irene slightly more, and Beau wiggles all over the place but it doens't seem to slow him down
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Old 2005-12-06, 06:46 AM   #30
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Re: Schlumpf 36

On Mon, 5 Dec 2005 15:23:32 -0600, harper wrote:

>hans wrote:
>> I do not plan to muni, jump or UPD with it

>
>Planning a UPD is contradictory.


But NOT planning a UPD is not.

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