Christian Unicyclists

[unicus]

Originally posted by GILD
because i'm sick and tired of the arrogant supposition that 'god does exist, duh! you just choose not te believe in him (rolleyes)'

my calling to become an Evangelical Atheist came recently while i was driving in my car and realised that the average person should be able to 'think it thru' in about 60seconds and realise that it's a crock
all i have to do now is live my life in such a way that i can motivate people to start that 'thinking it thru' process

60 seconds? You’re being very generous

Seriously, most atheists (not a very accurate term but it’ll do here) tend to want theists (again not a very accurate term, maybe something more PC like ‘people of religious persuasion’?) to engage in thinking about what they have been taught (religion is a taught explanation for personal observations).

What a lot of atheists get fed up with hearing is that they are missing something. I’m not missing anything. It’s like someone shouting to a unicyclist ‘you’re missing a wheel’, they’ve actually not thought it out. If they prefer bikes fine. Just as long as it doesn’t detrimentally affect the unicyclist and they don’t go preaching to them that they should have two wheels, that would be annoying wouldn’t it?

[phlegm]

Originally posted by unicus
Seriously, most atheists (not a very accurate term but it�ll do here) tend to want theists (again not a very accurate term, maybe something more PC like �people of religious persuasion�?) to engage in thinking about what they have been taught (religion is a taught explanation for personal observations).

Elitism? Intellectuals want nonintellectuals to think more.

Think about the demographics of the two positions. It seems reasonable to assert that Christianity has much more diversity in its adherents than atheists. This is to say that a much higher percentage of Christians are nonintellectuals. So, if not because of elitism, why should intellectuals expect nonintellectuals to think more? Is the intellectual life really better?

Are you atheists so cocky to believe that you have the one univerally true line of objective reasoning, that everyone else reasons incorrectly? Some of us Christians think deeply about our religion and choose to believe.

[uni57]

Originally posted by phlegm
Think about the demographics of the two positions. It seems reasonable to assert that Christianity has much more diversity in its adherents than atheists.

Because a much larger percentage of the population are theists? But theists all have something in common (theism). This may make them more alike. Not so with atheists. One could also argue that atheists are more free-thinking and therefore potentially more diverse. I'm not saying that. I'm just throwing it out there.

Originally posted by phlegm
This is to say that a much higher percentage of Christians are nonintellectuals.

Sorry, how did we get here? You are just going by the numbers?

Originally posted by phlegm
So, if not because of elitism, why should intellectuals expect nonintellectuals to think more? Is the intellectual life really better?

There is nothing more (at times) fun and (always) satisfying than thinking. And no, I'm not sure the intellectual life is better, although I will forever choose it. Sometimes I think that I would be happier if I were more stupid (not that I'm claiming to be very smart).

Originally posted by phlegm
Are you atheists so cocky to believe that you have the one univerally true line of objective reasoning, that everyone else reasons incorrectly? Some of us Christians think deeply about our religion and choose to believe.

I might be guilty as charged. Sorry. Perhaps it's because of reason vs. faith. I'm still of the position that reason and faith are mutually exclusive. In the places where you employ faith, my thought process simply stops. So perhaps the atheists are really trying to say... "have faith in reason!" (yes, I've playfully opened a can of worms by using the word "faith" here, but you know what I mean).

It's not that you reason incorrectly. You may employ the most careful reasoning, come to the conclusion that there's no compelling reason* to believe in God, and then go ahead and believe anyway! Arrrggghhhh! Maybe that's what sticks in the atheist's craw.



* - And the more I think about it, I have to conclude that all theists do come to the conclusion that there is no compelling reason to believe in God. Because that's where faith comes in. All theists require faith (is this correct?). Reason isn't enough (if it were, faith would be rendered obsolete). So perhaps the atheists need to limit their arguments to proving that faith is invalid. If the atheist truly wishes to make a convincing argument, then "faith" is where the battlefield lies.

[phlegm]

Originally posted by uni57
Sorry, how did we get here? You are just going by the numbers?

I was trying to make the point that a large percentage of those who call themselves Christians are not intellectuals, whereas, it seems to me that a large portion of atheists do have "higher educations" and are intellectuals. I guess I should have left out the generalizing comment before it.

So, an atheistic intellectual telling an "average" Christian who is not intellectual to reason more is somewhat pointless. Some people choose not to think as intensely as others, and to act as if one's position is superior because it might require more intellectual toil is elitist. Further, it seems to me that at least some atheists seem to find validation of their position since they arrived at it through intellectual means and can apply it to confound "average" nonintellectual Christians--it's not even a fair match. Maybe you still think your atheism is more reasonable, but don't use the lie that all Christians don't think for themselves to support your belief.

As far as I'm concerned, both the atheist and the theist positions require faith. Otherwise, either position would be universally justifiable, and this thread wouldn't exist. I don't really understand why (some) atheists have such an aversion to the five letter "f word." As I understand it, "faith" is belief without absolute justification, and out of necessity, we must act according to beliefs lacking justification everyday. I don't think faith necessarily implies a belief in God or even the supernatural.

Also, I wouldn't go so far as to say that there are no compelling reasons for Christianity. Some Christians have grand constructions of reasoning (called apologetics) to explain their belief in God. But I am not one of them because their methods don't compel me, yet I believe they are compelled. My lack of faith in objectivity tends to annoy not only scientifically minded individuals but also many Christian apologists.

[GILD]

Originally posted by uni57
It's not that you reason incorrectly. You may employ the most careful reasoning, come to the conclusion that there's no compelling reason* to believe in God, and then go ahead and believe anyway! Arrrggghhhh! Maybe that's what sticks in the atheist's craw.

The Scientologists' 'held down 7' analogy refers.
If u hold down the '7' on a pocket calculator and then proceed with a fairly basic calculation, your answer to '2 + 2' will not be correct.
Not because the calculator is faulty or because there is a fault with the calculation process, but simply because of the 'held down 7'.

Originally posted by uni57
If the atheist truly wishes to make a convincing argument, then "faith" is where the battlefield lies.

My participation in this thread notwithstanding, I'm choosing to live a convincing argument rather than make it.

Originally posted by phlegm
So, an atheistic intellectual telling an "average" Christian who is not intellectual to reason more is somewhat pointless.

Surely there's a middle ground between 'blindly believing' and 'intellectual elitism'?
I find your framing of this discussion rather unfair. To 'attack' me as 'elitist' seems a bit of a cheap and hackneyed shot.

Originally posted by phlegm
As I understand it, "faith" is belief without absolute justification

I prefer to think of it as 'the willing suspension of disbelief', a troublesome definition in it's own right.

Originally posted by phlegm
My lack of faith in objectivity tends to annoy not only scientifically minded individuals but also many Christian apologists.

Aha! I knew there was something about you i liked.

[uni57]

Originally posted by phlegm
Also, I wouldn't go so far as to say that there are no compelling reasons for Christianity. Some Christians have grand constructions of reasoning (called apologetics) to explain their belief in God.

Again, I only have a mnute. I thought of that when I was making my post, but then I had the thought that perhaps those arguments (or whatever you call them) were constructed in response to criticism from the atheists. Because I can't imagine someone being persuaded by them. A would-be theist is teetering on the fence. Then he hears the argument of First Cause and he says "aha!", now I'm convinced! God does indeed exist. Maybe it happens that way, but it seems that one does not come to know God by jumping through intellectual hoops. It's more of a feeling, a knowing.

I'll do some research and thinking about faith, because as you relate it to the uncertainty of knowledge, I think we would benefit from knowing a bit more about epistemology. I have a book that touches on that subject, if I can find it.

[rhysling]

Originally posted by uni57
... it seems that one does not come to know God by jumping through intellectual hoops. It's more of a feeling, a knowing.

Little picture of light bulb appears in thought bubble.

[rhysling]

Originally posted by uni57
... it seems that one does not come to know God by jumping through intellectual hoops. It's more of a feeling, a knowing.

Little picture of light bulb appears in thought bubble.

[unicus]

Originally posted by rhysling
Little picture of light bulb appears in thought bubble.

An illusory statement, how appropriate.

Seriously, there are two words that seem to cause some confusion in this discussion, “belief” and “faith”. From my understanding of the words the phrase “belief in faith” sounds quite ridiculous but none the less it is used by many people so I take it that their use is different to mine. Words are merely methods to communicate our thoughts after all and understanding each other is interesting even if we don’t agree on some things.

I’m quite a sceptic, I’m always questioning, and although I wouldn’t go as far as Pyrrhonism that train of thought does make a lot of sense to me. To me if you have faith or believe something to be true you have stopped questioning, I therefore can’t have faith or belief. That’s the way I see it anyway but you may have other views.

[john_childs]

Here's some fuel for some debate:
Societies worse off 'when they have God on their side'

RELIGIOUS belief can cause damage to a society, contributing towards high murder rates, abortion, sexual promiscuity and suicide, according to research published today.

According to the study, belief in and worship of God are not only unnecessary for a healthy society but may actually contribute to social problems.

The study counters the view of believers that religion is necessary to provide the moral and ethical foundations of a healthy society.

... continued ...

And the study: Cross-National Correlations of Quantifiable Societal Health with Popular Religiosity and Secularism in the Prosperous Democracies

I don't see how any real conclusions can be drawn from that study and certainly not the conclusions that the author tries to extract. There are far to many variables in a society other than just percentage who believe in religion.

A more accurate question from the study would be: "Does a societies belief in religion help non-believers?" I would have to say that it does not appear so. Is that really surprising? Religion is about the beliefs that guide you, not about whatever non-beliefs guide a non-believer.

[brockfisher05]

I personaly believe in God. but I am not someone to push my religion on people unless they have questions i will not really talk about it.

[UniBrier]

I thought of this tread when I read this in the comics this morning.

[gordythegon]

hi im a chritian and i was wandering if anyone has ever considered a unicycle livein it. It was a moive put out about chirtian bikein and skating.
It would be interesting if anyone wanted to think about doing that

[DK]

Originally Posted by gordythegon

hi im a chritian and i was wandering if anyone has ever considered a unicycle livein it. It was a moive put out about chirtian bikein and skating.
It would be interesting if anyone wanted to think about doing that

or you could make a unicycling that had nothing to do with religion.

Thats like saying, "I'm goin to make a movie, but only white people can be in it, because everyone else is bad"

[forrestunifreak]

Originally Posted by DK

or you could make a unicycling that had nothing to do with religion.

Thats like saying, "I'm goin to make a movie, but only white people can be in it, because everyone else is bad"

So, for instance, if you say you like punk rock then your saying all other kind of music is bad?

Maybe we should never do anything because somebody might be different than us and not like it. They might get offended so lets not speak to them.