We got universal health care!

[Nurse Ben]

http://www.ssa.gov/oact/STATS/dibStat.html

You need to learn more about statistics, they are not always what they seem.

I accept your humble apology. Have a nice time chewing on that sole

[maestro8]

Originally Posted by Nurse Ben

You need to learn more about statistics, they are not always what they seem.

I spent two years studying particle physics. I've studied enough to find veritable needles in haystacks, and also to find a steaming pile of BS in the middle of a wheat field.

So, stats man, tell me why the number of people receiving disability payments is growing 5 times faster then the population of the US? (sources: your link + https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat.../2002rank.html)

I'm no expert, but off the top of my head I can come up with two theories: either we've got some mysterious disease that is consuming the US workforce, or people are teaching each other how to game the system.

I accept your humble apology

What am I apologizing for, asking you too many questions? I still don't have answers to half of them. Take your time, there's no hurry.

[nick]

Originally Posted by Nurse Ben

Consider this: if you come from a low income family, you get pregnant and have a child, who is going to care for that child while you work or attend school?

Originally Posted by harper

What would possibly motivate someone to do something blatantly irresponsible like that? You can smell the crazy on that idea.

Of course having a child that you can't afford to take care of is a blatantly irresponsible idea! Knowing that my tax dollars go to supporting people that make such bad decisions makes me sick (so does knowing that my tax dollars go to supporting a disgustingly large military and everything that goes with it).

The problem is that the alternative is worse. Denying support to the people who need it (even if it is their own dumb decisions that got them into that situation) isn't a practical solution. It harms society in the long run.

Of course, things really aren't so simple. I can be pretty callous, and if it was practical, I would happily deny monetary aid to people over age 16 (or so), who continue to make poor choices in life. But what about the child in the situation? Denying the mother welfare is really condemning that child to a pretty lousy life, which continues in a downward spiral for generations. Long term the cost to all of society is greater when support is denied.

So I guess there are a few ways to look at it:

1) "Justice" view - deny support because problems are the result of one's own poor decision making.

2) "Long Term Practical" view - give support because it saves money, and improves society in the long run.

3) "Billy's" view - give support because the rich are evil and the poor are never to blame.

I'm sure there are other vies out there, and other solutions too!

[Nurse Ben]

I spent two years studying particle physics.

Maybe you should have made it three years?

I suppose you looked at the information presented in the tables, so you understand that there has not been a sudden increase in the past two years, though there was a jump in 2009 and an earlier one during the Bush years.

It appears that you are suggesting that people who can't find jobs are more likely to apply for disability, but that would only apply to folks who have cause for making a disability claim.

I'm not here to solve your moral dilemnas, nor to teach you about statistics.

If you insist on posting examples of misleading conclusions supported by sloppy statistics, well, that's your problem.

Maybe if you chew on that sole long enough you will attain enlightenment...

[maestro8]

Originally Posted by Nurse Ben

It appears that you are suggesting that people who can't find jobs are more likely to apply for disability, but that would only apply to folks who have cause for making a disability claim.

Now let's explore that "cause for making a disability claim". Is it really the case that there's some sort of mystery illness that's slowly consuming the unemployed? You're a doctor, right? Enlighten us already!

If you insist on posting examples of misleading conclusions supported by sloppy statistics, well, that's your problem.

They're statistics you've provided. The 5x trend I noted has been the case going back 10ish years.

You're more than welcome to provide your own analysis... or you can just keep up the cherry-picking and ad hominem.

[Nurse Ben]

Next?

[Byc]

Originally Posted by maestro8

Now let's explore that "cause for making a disability claim". Is it really the case that there's some sort of mystery illness that's slowly consuming the unemployed? You're a doctor, right? Enlighten us already!



They're statistics you've provided. The 5x trend I noted has been the case going back 10ish years.

You're more than welcome to provide your own analysis... or you can just keep up the cherry-picking and ad hominem.

i am in no position to doubt your reputation (everyone on this thread i know only from the post you made on this forum) i just wanted to ask what point you are trying to proof and who or what do you claim is responsible for the obvious disaster?

hello nick!
Thanks for that post, it's a nice description of my own thoughts on that.

Greetings

Byc

P.s.: Reagarding disability payments. You still need to have some diability to receive it, don't you? Or you have to have some fake diagnosis whatever, there's always someone trying to benefit even if they are not really qualified for it.
You have to make one step back and look at the broader picture here, think in terms of community and society.

[Nurse Ben]

think in terms of community and society

BYC, that's exactly my thought!

Here's the rub: All of us will die, some sooner than others, and we can't take anything with us, so what's at issue is what we leave behind.

Do you want to leave behind a healthier and happier world or will your self interests preclude giving back some of your wealth and wisdom to the future generations?

Nick, I'll take number two:

2) "Long Term Practical" view - give support because it saves money, and improves society in the long run.

[maestro8]

Originally Posted by Byc

i just wanted to ask what point you are trying to proof and who or what do you claim is responsible for the obvious disaster?

I'm trying to drive home the point that there's no such thing as a free lunch, especially when one gives out free lunches

Case in point: the US government recently extended benefits to those out of work, roughly doubling the amount of time for which they receive benefits. There are some economists who have argued that this ultimately hurts the economy, as those on benefits will wait until their benefits run out before finding a job, passing up perfectly good employment opportunities. (one source: http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/...lp-the-economy)

In some cases, unemployment benefits can pay more than a menial job... what motivates one to take employment in this case? There have been studies that have shown many unemployed wait until the final weeks of their benefit to take up employment. (one source: http://www.themoneyillusion.com/?p=12198 via http://www.nationalreview.com/corner...onique-de-rugy) Recent unemployment reforms in Germany and Denmark point to the solution as being one of reduction rather than extension (see: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/17/bu...pagewanted=all)

How does this tie in to the health care debate? Well, I'm not here to say that I want to see poor people stay sick, nor do I want to see people pushed into poverty because of health care costs... but I don't think that it's right to create a society where people have no motivation to care for themselves... and this is what I see happening when the government gives them everything they need, with nothing given in return.

Reagarding disability payments. You still need to have some diability to receive it, don't you? Or you have to have some fake diagnosis whatever, there's always someone trying to benefit even if they are not really qualified for it.

Yes, one must claim some disability... but it has been seen time and again that people can simply claim "my back hurts" or "I get headaches" and be sent home with compensation... only to be caught lifting heavy objects the very next day (one source in thousands: http://blog.chron.com/newswatch/2012...ty-fraud-case/)

You have to make one step back and look at the broader picture here, think in terms of community and society.

This is exactly what I'm doing!

The difference is that when some folks "think of society" they think how much they can give to that society to improve it from the outside... and when other folks "think of society" they think of how they can educate that society to improve itself from within.

It should be obvious that I am the latter case. And I believe that giving out free lunches is not how to encourage one to improve.

[Nurse Ben]

It should be obvious that I am the latter case. And I believe that giving out free lunches is not how to encourage one to improve.

Maybe that's because you always had a way to pay?

Even for those who get a "free lunch", it is not a good lunch and few would say it is a satisfying lunch. For those who receive some form of social welfare, many will try to get off welfare because it doesn't pay enough. The only ones who stay on welfare are those who have no other choice, ie tied down to child caring, unable to keep a job due to mental or physical disability, or those who are so downtrodden that they can't muster the energy.

Maestro, have you ever been downtrodden? Have you ever been so broke you had to skip meals? Have you ever been without a place to live? Have you ever been without hope? Welfare is not meant to be an end all, it is meant to be a step up, a hand up. It's all about walking in someone else's shoes.

In the case of medical care, it is one way that we can level the playing field by keeping people healthy so they can participate in the economy. Have you ever been without health insurance in your life? What would you do if you had no insurance and you tripped and broke you arm? And you did construction for a living? And you supported a family?

Back before I went to college, I worked as a framer, I had a buddy who was a lead carpenter, his wife stayed at home with the kids. He was a hard working guy, worked under the table since that's how the industry works. So one day he's working on a second story deck and he slips, falls fifteen feet and breaks both of his wrists. No insurance, no disability, nothing except a hospital bill and lost wages.

I know it's a struggle, but you may need to look at the world around you, not all people are as fortunate as you and yours. If only you could be a fly on the wall when I'm seeing some of my patients...it might help you understand that welfare is not all that great.

Try a little empathy, not all people are taking advantage of the system, no matter what Fox news and Rush say. Think about what you would do and consider the possibility that there are people out there that want to work and can't work, for all the reasons we know, what would you want, really want, in order to help you pull yourself up by the bootstraps.

What I would want:

Health care
Public transportation
Housing
Education/vocational training
Child care
Food aid

[nick]

Originally Posted by Nurse Ben

Back before I went to college, I worked as a framer, I had a buddy who was a lead carpenter, his wife stayed at home with the kids. He was a hard working guy, worked under the table since that's how the industry works. So one day he's working on a second story deck and he slips, falls fifteen feet and breaks both of his wrists. No insurance, no disability, nothing except a hospital bill and lost wages.

Wow. You are terrible at making your point. You should have just written:

Originally Posted by Nurse Ben really said

My friend tried to scam the system, then it backfired on him.

Your buddy, the lead carpenter, clearly screwed himself on that one. He should have demanded to be put on pay roll, or he should have set himself up as an independent contractor, paid taxes, and gotten himself some health insurance.

If you work under the table, you don't pay taxes. If you want the CEOs to pay more taxes to fund universal healthcare, you damn well better make sure that the people benefiting from it most are also putting in something.

[Samstoney]

Originally Posted by nick

Your buddy, the lead carpenter, clearly screwed himself on that one. He should have demanded to be put on pay roll, or he should have set himself up as an independent contractor, paid taxes, and gotten himself some health insurance.

Err...so you think he'd have a job if he demanded to be put on payroll? Would you chance that if it was the only job you could find and had bills to pay? And - have you ever priced personal health insurance?

Think we all paid less covering for the bills he couldn't pay for, plus collection fees, plus interest, etc, then the premium we'd pay to cover preemptively him under Obamacare? I don't.

Sam

[Nurse Ben]

Err...so you think he'd have a job if he demanded to be put on payroll? Would you chance that if it was the only job you could find and had bills to pay? And - have you ever priced personal health insurance?

Think we all paid less covering for the bills he couldn't pay for, plus collection fees, plus interest, etc, then the premium we'd pay to cover preemptively him under Obamacare? I don't.

Sam

Exactly right Sam. In some places, "beggars can't be choosers", so folks are forced to work "illegally" in order to have work at all. It's pretty common in the construction industry. Contracting yourself is not any better as it pays the same, but you are forced to pay out more.

And thank you Nick for helping me make my point:

Nick is clearly one those people, like Maestro 8, who has never had walked in another's shoes, but insists that the way he has done it is the way all people can and should do it.

You fail to see the point of providing health care to a population who can't afford it. The "welfare frauds" already have free health care. The ones who will benefit most from this health care program are the working poor, those who are employed but don't make enough to afford health care.

Kinda ironic that the ones you think will abuse the new health care system are not the ones who will be using it...

[nick]

Originally Posted by Samstoney

Err...so you think he'd have a job if he demanded to be put on payroll?

If he was a good carpenter, he would. And if that isn't an option, he could have paid taxes as an independent contractor, as I said in my post.

Originally Posted by Samstoney

Would you chance that if it was the only job you could find and had bills to pay?

He could have paid taxes as an independent contractor, as I said in my post. That also would have qualified him for unemployment and other benefits.

Originally Posted by Samstoney

And - have you ever priced personal health insurance?

Yes. It is expensive. I'm in favor of universal, single payer health care.

Originally Posted by Samstoney

Think we all paid less covering for the bills he couldn't pay for, plus collection fees, plus interest, etc, then the premium we'd pay to cover preemptively him under Obamacare? I don't.

I don't know the full story, so I won't assume either way. Either way, not the point.

Originally Posted by Samstoney

Sam

Sam, I made this post because I am in favor of socialized healthcare. I think the wealthiest among us should be paying 90% tax rates (or whatever), and I think the universal healthcare plan recently passed is a very small step in the right direction.

But the example of the lead carpenter is terrible. It is really an example of exactly what opponents of universal healthcare say is the downside! A guy (the lead carpenter) does not contribute to the system at all, he then gets injured, and his friend (Ben) expects everyone else to foot the bill!

[nick]

Originally Posted by Nurse Ben

Exactly right Sam. In some places, "beggars can't be choosers", so folks are forced to work "illegally" in order to have work at all. It's pretty common in the construction industry. Contracting yourself is not any better as it pays the same, but you are forced to pay out more.

First, we're not talking about the guy digging the ditches making minimum wage. We're talking about the lead carpenter who is hopefully making a bit more than that.

Second, the choice was not between "not working" and "working without paying taxes." As I pointed out, and you acknowledged, the third option is paying taxes as a contractor.

Third, contracting yourself means that you pay taxes. It is what you should be doing to support the system that you want to create. It also provides protection in the case of unemployment! Which would have helped this guy, in this case.

Fourth, if you think the typical construction worker payment system sucks, then you should lobby to have it changed. Paying people under the table benefits the bosses. They can pay less, don't have to pay for insurance, unemployment, or a myriad of other costs associated with actually employing people!

Originally Posted by Nurse Ben

And thank you Nick for helping me make my point:

Nick is clearly one those people, like Maestro 8, who has never had walked in another's shoes, but insists that the way he has done it is the way all people can and should do it.

Fifth, my point is that if you want to benefit from things like universal health care, you should be willing to pay taxes. Why should he get a break because he works construction. Plenty of people work worse jobs, for less money, and also pay taxes.

Sixth, all I'm insisting is that people should pay taxes if they expect to benefit from them.

Seventh, I never said anything about my life!

Eighth, but since you brought it up, I lived here for three years:

https://picasaweb.google.com/1037865...eat=directlink

It was awesome, by the way. But don't think it was easy, or that I was anything but dead broke and technically homeless the entire time.

Originally Posted by Nurse Ben

You fail to see the point of providing health care to a population who can't afford it. The "welfare frauds" already have free health care. The ones who will benefit most from this health care program are the working poor, those who are employed but don't make enough to afford health care.

Ninth, you fail to see the point that using a tax fraud as an example is self defeating.

Originally Posted by Nurse Ben

Kinda ironic that the ones you think will abuse the new health care system are not the ones who will be using it...

Tenth, kinda ironic that the people who you want to be using the new health care system are the people who aren't paying for it...

Just to say it again: I'm for single payer, socialist, universal health care! I'm also for paying taxes to pay for it!