Second Amendment and the right to keep and bear arms

[wobbling bear]

Originally Posted by feel the light

Can anyone come up with a state that legalized concealed carry, and crime went up ? It always went down, and I feel that is most relevant.

relationships in either way can be confusing:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence
culture, the way law enforcement is carried, etc. leads to many conflicting parameters.
ok we come from a different culture, but you need to understand why gun ownership is frowned upon in many parts of Europe: the great European Civil War (which you call WWII) has shown us that fairly common people that otherwise could look fairly peaceful can do dreadful things when they have weapons. I remember fairly well the testimony of a german officer who told a bunch of middle aged landswehr gentlemen: "come on you are not soldiers: you are not obliged to do that!" alas they did it!
Fascination with firearms is a drug (as with every drug there are people who can master that and a lot who can't).
Drugs have big cultural perceptions: what is common in one culture is abhorrent to another. (alcool is an interesting example)

[Straightarrow]

Another history revisionist proves once again: "The first casualty of war is the truth".

WW2 was an international war, the USA had plenty of official "invitations" and Japan got a warm response.

WW2: The International War: had about 6 million beautiful and wonderful reasons for the USA to be involved sooner but the Genocide of the Holocaust during WW2 stole their precious lives.

The Diary Of Anne Frank is another compelling argument to embrace "Inalieable Human Rights" and remember what happens when you fail to grasp the obvious and forget the lessons of history.

History revision is a drug too, people are using it to forget.

[wobbling bear]

Originally Posted by Straightarrow

Another history revisionist proves once again: "The first casualty of war is the truth".

WW2 was an international war, .....

WW2: The International War:.

my message was apparently not clear enough (I should have put a smiley): for sure WW2 was an international war but for many European countries it was also a "civil" war. There were fascists and nazi minions of all nationalities and , for instance, Germans and Austrians who fought alongside the allies. In Europe for those caught in the middle (my uncle , my father in law,..) there was a strange impression of a turmoil with a mix of many nationalities and often people of the same nation going to each other's throat ("yugoslavs" being at the top of the list). In France it was also a "civil" war with people fighting on both sides (though revisionnists would not like to admit it! ). In my home town there was only one battle: when the "resistance" took prisonners they were surprised to discover they didn't speak german at all! (they were russians ).
for sure it was also an international war: my Moroccan friends who fought at Monte Cassino would not call that a civil war.

[Nurse Ben]

Will we ever learn, to get along, to not think in extremes, to ground our opinions in reality, or will mass media and the fictionalized world become our reality?

When was the last time your family was threatened by people with guns?

What a crock of BS!

If you want a gun, then say you want a gun, but don't stand behind some straw man argument about needing to "protect your loved ones" cuz that there is fantasy straight outta the movies!

Why are Americans so far behind the Europeans in gun control? Is it philosophical, is it a control issue, are we stuck in some sort of "wild west" mentality?

So a tazer and a bean bag shooter are not good for long range, so you must want a sniper rifle. Right, to defend your loved ones in the home you want a long range weapon that is not suitable for home use. Whereas a tazzer, mace, and a bean bag shooter are designed for close quarters, but no, those won't work for protecting your loved ones, nope, not a chance.

Sample tag line: Power and control lacking in your life? Then get a gun and you can re-establish your manliness.

Sample tag line: Why work out at the gym when a gun will make you even more of a man?

You all need to do so serious thinking....guns are not the answer.

Big and tough are ya? Take a face shot of pepper spray and tell me how tough you are as you cough and gag, half stumbling for the door.

Here's a sweet tag line for ya: Worried about intruders, concerned that a loaded gun will be misused by a child, afraid that you'll miss the shot, then put a can of pepper spray in every room, wall mounted, then just grab it and fog the room. Problem solved, no holes, no blood, nice and quiet, and with some open windows and a fan you can go back to bed and sleep well knowing those intruders will never be back

This discussion has got me thinking about getting some of those Grizzly Bear sized canisters and some cheap gas masks, one set up per room, inexpensive and safe, great shelf life too.

Wobblingbear, do you get nervous when you visit the States?

[harper]

Originally Posted by Nurse Ben

When was the last time your family was threatened by people with guns?

When was the last time your house caught fire? Do you have a fire extinguisher? Why? Are you trying to prove you're macho? When was the last time you were in a life threatening car accident? Do you have seat belts and air bags? Why? Sissy. When was the last time you severed your femoral artery? Does your first aid kit have a tourniquet? Isn't that kind of excessive?

Originally Posted by Nurse Ben

Big and tough are ya? Take a face shot of pepper spray and tell me how tough you are as you cough and gag, half stumbling for the door.

This is somehow connected? Maybe you could expand on this and try to show what direction you're going with it.

[Gilby]

Originally Posted by Nurse Ben

When was the last time your family was threatened by people with guns?

Every day. After all, I live in a police state. Whether it's just going a mile or two over a ridiculously low posted speed limit, consuming something I grow in my backyard garden, or being forced to pay to kill brown people overseas (just to name a few), it is all done with the threat of people using guns. If you don't obey, armed men will break and enter your home, guns drawn, and either cart you off and lock you in a cage, or kill you if you resist that.

The intent of the 2nd amendment is to allow the people to resist tyranny and, as per the Declaration of Independence, overthrow the government when it becomes destructive of the inalienable rights of each human, that being of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

[BillyTheMountain]

Originally Posted by Gilby

Every day. After all, I live in a police state. Whether it's just going a mile or two over a ridiculously low posted speed limit, consuming something I grow in my backyard garden, or being forced to pay to kill brown people overseas (just to name a few), it is all done with the threat of people using guns. If you don't obey, armed men will break and enter your home, guns drawn, and either cart you off and lock you in a cage, or kill you if you resist that.

The intent of the 2nd amendment is to allow the people to resist tyranny and, as per the Declaration of Independence, overthrow the government when it becomes destructive of the inalienable rights of each human, that being of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

Headlines: Draft Dodger Gilby has barricaded himself in his home with an arsenal of weapons and the police have him surrounded

[MuniAddict]

http://www.keyc.tv/story/18863204/14...armed-intruder

[BillyTheMountain]

Father leaves three young children home alone with a loaded hand gun

Originally Posted by MuniAddict

http://www.keyc.tv/story/18863204/14...armed-intruder

Father leaves three young children home alone with a loaded hand gun

When you do that, this story often turns out differently, and one child kills another child.

I guess you think parents should leave children home with a loaded handgun?

[feel the light]

Originally Posted by BillyTheMountain

Father leaves three young children home alone with a loaded hand gun



Father leaves three young children home alone with a loaded hand gun

When you do that, this story often turns out differently, and one child kills another child.

I guess you think parents should leave children home with a loaded handgun?

On remote farms, calling cops for help is not an option. Ma and the kids is there alone. Train a kid at 7 to shoot a bb rifle, and at 10 he gets a nylon 66 Remington 22. Believe it or not, some people trust their kids more than random strangers.

Then when a bad ass shows up the dogs bark crazy. Then bad ass shoots a dog. Little junior has his rifle (note, "rifle", most kids can't aim pistols to save their lives, but rifles are easy).

Now, the tides turn. Kid hiding has 15 rounds and is unlikely to miss. Dogs and well trained kids with 22 rifles is perhaps the best security system ever devised for the common family in rural areas. They ain't gonna give it up , no use trying , cause you don't have a better plan. They will ban 22 rifles when they ban legal hunting, and that's not going to happen either.

[nick]

Originally Posted by harper

When was the last time your house caught fire? Do you have a fire extinguisher? Why? Are you trying to prove you're macho? When was the last time you were in a life threatening car accident? Do you have seat belts and air bags? Why? Sissy. When was the last time you severed your femoral artery? Does your first aid kit have a tourniquet? Isn't that kind of excessive?

There are very few downsides to having fire extinguishers, seat belts, air bags, and tourniquets around your house/car. The number of accidental deaths due to fire extinguishers is probably in the single digits. The number of homicides carried out using seat belts, probably also single digits. Consequences of a tourniquet falling into the "wrong hands," probably none.

[wobbling bear]

Originally Posted by Nurse Ben

Wobblingbear, do you get nervous when you visit the States?

No but I may be privileged : I only fear being run over by Porsches in Palo-Alto

[maestro8]

Originally Posted by harper

This is somehow connected? Maybe you could expand on this and try to show what direction you're going with it.

I think Ben's trying to make the point that with a ego of sufficient size, you can down an elephant with little more than a teflon spatula. Clearly your ego is only big enough to handle small children and yappy dogs.

Originally Posted by feel the light

Kid hiding has 15 rounds and is unlikely to miss. Dogs and well trained kids with 22 rifles is perhaps the best security system ever devised for the common family in rural areas.

This. Where I grew up, I'd be lucky if a cop could get to my house within 45 minutes of calling. It's not quite "every man for himself" but close enough.

Originally Posted by nick

There are very few downsides to having fire extinguishers, seat belts, air bags, and tourniquets around your house.

This isn't the point that Harper is making, and you know this. Think about the downsides of bringing a fire extinguisher to a gunfight...

[JJuggle]

Originally Posted by maestro8

Think about the downsides of bringing a fire extinguisher to a gunfight...

Worked out pretty well for John McClane in Live Free or Die Hard.

[maestro8]

Originally Posted by JJuggle

Worked out pretty well for John McClane in Live Free or Die Hard.

Worst sequel in the series, by a landslide.