Indoctrinating Children

[SqueakyOnion]

Originally Posted by BillyTheMountain

The most important thing is that, by the time one becomes an adult, you should be completely indoctrinated in the belief that your beliefs are your own, and are the result of your own decision-making process.

The even more important thing is that, by the time one becomes a Mountain, you should be completely indoctrinated in the belief that you have been indoctrinated into believing that your beliefs are your own, and are the result of your own decision-making process.

[SomebodyNamedNoah]

Originally Posted by nick

Creationism should be thoroughly crushed in science class around the same time that kids learn Santa Claus isn't real either.

Nick,
Why do you think Creationism should be taken from science class. There's nothing that proves evolution is fact. If you want to teach kids facts, teach them about creation, that the world was created By God, the world is not a million years old, the fall of man when sin came into the world, and that there was a flood.

[Zzagg]

Originally Posted by SomebodyNamedNoah

The world is not a million years old

True that, more like 4.5 billion years, actually.

[Heretical Rants]

Originally Posted by SqueakyOnion

The even more important thing is that, by the time one becomes a Mountain, you should be completely indoctrinated in the belief that you have been indoctrinated into believing that your beliefs are your own, and are the result of your own decision-making process.

Come, now, Billy's doing his usual nonsensical rambling, but at the core of what he's saying he actually has a good point here.

[Heretical Rants]

Originally Posted by SomebodyNamedNoah

Nick,
Why do you think Creationism should be taken from science class. There's nothing that proves evolution is fact. If you want to teach kids facts, teach them about creation, that the world was created By God, the world is not a million years old, the fall of man when sin came into the world, and that there was a flood.

I see your Bender and raise you a Fry:


My bet is on troll, however.

[SqueakyOnion]

Originally Posted by Heretical Rants

Come, now, Billy's doing his usual nonsensical rambling, but at the core of what he's saying he actually has a good point here.

Billy seems to be implying that free will is a false idea we have been indoctrinated into, resulting in some form of determinism. He does have a good point, but as usual, I suspect it is a point that the "real" Billy doesn't actually endorse, and is instead intended as a controversial conversation point. I may indeed be mistaken, and if so, would the real BillytheMountain please stand up?

Is it no less reasonable to say that we have been indoctrinated into believing we have been indoctrinated, than it is to say that we simply are indoctrinated, as Billy said. Neither can be proven...the indoctrinators, motives, and means are all ambiguous, landing Billy's "theory" in the realm of CONSPIRACY THEORY.

[johnfoss]

Originally Posted by SomebodyNamedNoah

Why do you think Creationism should be taken from science class.

In case you're really following along in this discussion and want to take part:

Creationism isn't science. That's why it has no place in a science class. It's theology, and perfectly appropriate for a theology class, though there aren't many of those in public schools. Try to be a little more open minded. We have all been indoctrinated to some extent, but you're only 13...

There's nothing that proves evolution is fact.

Correct. That's why that "theory" word is always included. The theory is based on mountains of scientific data. One must first understand what science is, and what the scientific method is all about, before determining what belongs in a science class. Stay in school.

...teach them about creation, that the world was created By God, the world is not a million years old, the fall of man when sin came into the world, and that there was a flood.

Yes, there have been floods.

And yes, the world is not a million years old. Science backs both of those up, and again there's mountains of factual evidence. Mountains not named Billy. Steer clear of those.

[SomebodyNamedNoah]

Yeah, I agree to some extent but i'm a Christian and that's just my opinion on what i believe. And i guess your right, we've all been indoctrinated to some extent about different views in the world.

[Heretical Rants]

Originally Posted by johnfoss

Correct. That's why that "theory" word is always included. The theory is based on mountains of scientific data. One must first understand what science is, and what the scientific method is all about, before determining what belongs in a science class. Stay in school.

Inb4 the kid misunderstands the term "theory." He's probably just parroting his parents anyway, so he might as well have the facts:

1)Theory is currently the highest level ANY explanation for ANYTHING in the scientific world can reach. We don't use the term "law" anymore, nor the term "fact." Instead we use terms like evidence, hypothesis, theory.

2)To deny evolution is to deny all, absolutely ALL of modern biology, geology, paleontology, etc.

At his age he hasn't had enough education to really even know what evolution is, but it conflicts with his parents' primitive beliefs.
Belief has absolutely no effect on reality, by the way. Believe whatever you want, that doesn't change the facts. Here's your bloody evidence: http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolib...hp?topic_id=46

[uni57]

Originally Posted by nick

So, in another thread I started thinking about the kids.

I really think it is evil to indoctrinate children into any kind of religion. And while religion is some of the worst of it (not as bad as raising them as racists or bigots, but close, and sometimes overlapping).

Why not have a class in school that teaches kids about many sides of as many issues as possible. I would say start as young as possible (first grade, age five, six?). Discuss things like religion, politics, vegetarianism, bigotry, marriage, etc.

The classes wouldn't take a side on any issue, or even argue the points. They would just be a wide variety of facts.

Of course, some people would home school so they could indoctrinate their kids anyway (which is the reason for many kids being home schooled already). But I also think that all kinds should be in school for a mandatory 1/2 day, every day, until they can legally drop out at 16 or so.

^^^ original post

Originally Posted by SomebodyNamedNoah

Yeah, I agree to some extent but i'm a Christian and that's just my opinion on what i believe. And i guess your right, we've all been indoctrinated to some extent about different views in the world.

^^^ a bona fide, actual, "indoctrinated child" -- right here in this thread

Wow, what more could this thread ask for? We should be glad he's here and asking him questions (hi, Noah). Like... how would you feel about a class that "teaches kids about many sides of as many issues as possible"? Including other religions that fly in the face of closely-held core family beliefs? And what about other issues? I know that if someone force-fed me (no pun intended) a line of crap about the benefits of vegetarianism or a low-fat diet, I would walk right out of the class to go buy a bacon cheeseburger. Obviously I'm asking very loaded questions. I'm not necessarily disagreeing with the overall sentiment of the OP. I just don't know how to make it work.

[johnfoss]

Originally Posted by uni57

^^^ a bona fide, actual, "indoctrinated child" -- right here in this thread

Lest you miss the point we both were making, we have all been indoctrinated to some extent. First by our parents, later by our peers, and from then onward, by our own selves. First one has to notice when it's happening, and then do some hard work to get out from under a lifetime of "beliefs" that may be based on incorrect facts, hearsay, or even just agreements we made with ourselves when we were kids.

If anything, someone as young as Noah has had less of a chance to become encased in a lifetime of beliefs/agreements. But it's just as hard for anyone to look objectively on why we believe what we do, or do what we do, and see if it still makes sense (or ever did).

But yeah, Noah, would love to hear what you think of Uni57's question. For me, it's not so much whether it's a good idea, but whether the thing can actually be pulled off in any kind of meaningful way would seem to be the hard part.

[SomebodyNamedNoah]

Originally Posted by uni57

^^^ original post
Wow, what more could this thread ask for? We should be glad he's here and asking him questions (hi, Noah). Like... how would you feel about a class that "teaches kids about many sides of as many issues as possible"? Including other religions that fly in the face of closely-held core family beliefs? And what about other issues? I know that if someone force-fed me (no pun intended) a line of crap about the benefits of vegetarianism or a low-fat diet, I would walk right out of the class to go buy a bacon cheeseburger. Obviously I'm asking very loaded questions. I'm not necessarily disagreeing with the overall sentiment of the OP. I just don't know how to make it work.

Yeah i agree. I think in a way that having a class that talks about many different issues in the world and many of the other religions and theories is a good thing.Then kids can make their own decision on what they can believe in life. Like instead of having a class that just teaches evolution or creation. I believe in creation and Christianity but that's what i believe. I think in our world today having a class like this is a great idea and then it gives people a choice on what they want to believe in.

P.S. Why are we even talking about this on this forum, we all should just be talking about unicyling.

[Heretical Rants]

Definitely. That sounds completely reasonable.


That, or we could just teach about religion and such in geography and history (and other social science classes), like we already do.

[BillyTheMountain]

Originally Posted by SqueakyOnion

Billy seems to be implying that free will is a false idea we have been indoctrinated into, resulting in some form of determinism. He does have a good point, but as usual, I suspect it is a point that the "real" Billy doesn't actually endorse, and is instead intended as a controversial conversation point. I may indeed be mistaken, and if so, would the real BillytheMountain please stand up?

Is it no less reasonable to say that we have been indoctrinated into believing we have been indoctrinated, than it is to say that we simply are indoctrinated, as Billy said. Neither can be proven...the indoctrinators, motives, and means are all ambiguous, landing Billy's "theory" in the realm of CONSPIRACY THEORY.

Most of what we believe, we believe because we accept the credibility of the source. Most of what we "know" we have not experienced or seen the actual proof. Who told you about atoms? how do you know dinosaurs went extinct millions of years ago and not ten thousand? The only way you know these things, is that you accept a credible source with a seemingly credible story.

If you are an atheist or a so-called christian, you think you came to that decision on your own. In fact, you have selected specific influences or sources of info as your metaprogrammer. Good job!

You played some part in your indoctrination, but you tend to think you arrived at these positions independently, as if you can have any thoughts independent of a life time of influences.

[BillyTheMountain]

lots of people believe they are a christian if they hate gay people, or want children to die without health care, support capitol punishment, or want women to have no legal choice when pregnant knowing that where abortion is illegal, many women die from illegal abortions. They say: I support policies that contribute to the death of murderers, women, children, and gay bashing, therefore I'm a christian.

Others see that Jesus embraced everyone, gave free health care to many who asked, hung out with prostitutes, broke many of his religions rules and taught others to do so as well (e.g., the good samaritan, sabbath rules, ritual bathing, associating with the "unclean", etc etc). They recognize Jesus was tried, found guilty, and received capitol punishment as a convicted criminal, so they don't like the death penalty. Those people do/think likewise, and thus think they are christians.

Lots of diversity among christians, I guess.

and same degree of diversity among so-called scientists too, I guess, even atheist scientists.

Maybe indoctrination isn't working.